I have a job roughed in,it is an addition to a bedroom not a new room, the second floor is fed by multi wire circuits,and for ease/ diversety I used two different existing circuits.I know I at least have to provide afci for the work I did But does the afci function properly on a multi wire circuit? Does the NEC demand that I, regardless of cost/hardship,feed my work with a new circuit from panel witch would still not protect the existing outlets in the room. help!
AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
- Thread starter cram
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bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Marc,
There are 2 pole AFCI Breakers that will function on multiwire circuits.
http://www.sea.siemens.com/speedfax/Load_Centers/1-24_Arc_Fault_and_Ground_Fault_Breakers_.pdf
Marc,
There are 2 pole AFCI Breakers that will function on multiwire circuits.
http://www.sea.siemens.com/speedfax/Load_Centers/1-24_Arc_Fault_and_Ground_Fault_Breakers_.pdf
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
What ever code requirements where in place should have been included in the job price.
That said, we all, or at least myself have overlooked things and just had to deal with it it.
The NEC is not directly concerned with our costs and hardships.
What ever code requirements where in place should have been included in the job price.
That said, we all, or at least myself have overlooked things and just had to deal with it it.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Would check with AHJ he might give you a break if this is just 1 or recepticles , maybe not.Do they make a afci recepticle like they do gfci ? I havn't seen any yet but would hope they become available.
Would check with AHJ he might give you a break if this is just 1 or recepticles , maybe not.Do they make a afci recepticle like they do gfci ? I havn't seen any yet but would hope they become available.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Jim
An AHJ would not really be giving anyone a break if they relieved them from code rules. If there was an injury following the installation, and the consumer sued, the installer would be responsible. Like Bob has said, we all make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them.
Also the AFCI receptacle would not comply with 210.12(B)
Pierre
Jim
An AHJ would not really be giving anyone a break if they relieved them from code rules. If there was an injury following the installation, and the consumer sued, the installer would be responsible. Like Bob has said, we all make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them.
Also the AFCI receptacle would not comply with 210.12(B)
Pierre
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Some inspectors let a few minor things slide on remodels.Sometimes in 1920 homes it just can't be brought up to code for a price the customer could pay.If they push too hard then we have houses that are unsafe not getting fixed.1920 code was very lacking in number of outlets, if this is a partial rewire issues like 6 ft rules just don't get pushed.If we have a min of 2 outlets in a room we will pass.
Adding outlets in new addition and then wanting arc faults might be imposible.
Some inspectors let a few minor things slide on remodels.Sometimes in 1920 homes it just can't be brought up to code for a price the customer could pay.If they push too hard then we have houses that are unsafe not getting fixed.1920 code was very lacking in number of outlets, if this is a partial rewire issues like 6 ft rules just don't get pushed.If we have a min of 2 outlets in a room we will pass.
Adding outlets in new addition and then wanting arc faults might be imposible.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Jim
I totally agree that when adding a room to a house that the rest of the house should not require rewiring. For any addition though, it should be wired completely to code, if the customer cannot afford to do that, they should not build the addition.
Pierre
Jim
I totally agree that when adding a room to a house that the rest of the house should not require rewiring. For any addition though, it should be wired completely to code, if the customer cannot afford to do that, they should not build the addition.
Pierre
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Cutler Hammer and GE have 2-pole AFCI units available that I've used as well as the Siemens/Murray already mentioned.
I know the Cutlers are available in common and independent trip flavors. Don't know if the others offer independent trip models. The Cutler independent trips only independently trip on ordinary overloads. An AF/30ma GF trip would result in them doing a common trip (a useful trouble shooting hint)
Cutler Hammer and GE have 2-pole AFCI units available that I've used as well as the Siemens/Murray already mentioned.
I know the Cutlers are available in common and independent trip flavors. Don't know if the others offer independent trip models. The Cutler independent trips only independently trip on ordinary overloads. An AF/30ma GF trip would result in them doing a common trip (a useful trouble shooting hint)
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
Boy that would make trouble shooting even harder as now you have two circuits to find a neutral to ground fault. Of course you could disconnect each circuit to see which one is tripping.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
After ruling out bum plugged in stuff, a little test planning can ease the pain somewhat. First turn off all the switches loops involved, then turn'em on one at a time. If it pops, you've isolated the issue to the switch box or whatever its controlling...if that were 20 Halos you may still have some work to do
Receptical testing isn't that bad with something like a SureTest that can spot bootleg gnds. Temporarily put in an ordinary 2-pole or a pair of 1-pole, then go around looking for bootlegs at recepticals.
A cable damage scenario is probably the worst - there you'll be having to disconnect sections of the circuit to isolate. But that's something that would have had to be done pre-AFCI anyway if the damage isn't obvious or the guy won't fess up to driving a railroad spike to hang something when the circuit went out
Recently I've taken to pigtailing green THHN when using Romex and there's more than one device or the box wiring is complicated. Doesn't cost much and its cheap insurance against problems with bare gnds touching something later on.
After ruling out bum plugged in stuff, a little test planning can ease the pain somewhat. First turn off all the switches loops involved, then turn'em on one at a time. If it pops, you've isolated the issue to the switch box or whatever its controlling...if that were 20 Halos you may still have some work to do
Receptical testing isn't that bad with something like a SureTest that can spot bootleg gnds. Temporarily put in an ordinary 2-pole or a pair of 1-pole, then go around looking for bootlegs at recepticals.
A cable damage scenario is probably the worst - there you'll be having to disconnect sections of the circuit to isolate. But that's something that would have had to be done pre-AFCI anyway if the damage isn't obvious or the guy won't fess up to driving a railroad spike to hang something when the circuit went out
Recently I've taken to pigtailing green THHN when using Romex and there's more than one device or the box wiring is complicated. Doesn't cost much and its cheap insurance against problems with bare gnds touching something later on.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Why not just tape the receptacles?
Bill
Tonyi,
Why not just tape the receptacles?
Bill
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
If its only a single device I usually don't bother. In that case the box stuffing isn't that involved and there's usually plenty of room to route a bare gnd safely. Its the quad/multiple switch type situations where I'll use the green rather than bare.
With metal boxes/old work I've grown fond of the Arlington BE1/2's to keep things inline. I used to use tape a lot, but it often slips off after a period of time and leaves a sticky mess on the device.
If its only a single device I usually don't bother. In that case the box stuffing isn't that involved and there's usually plenty of room to route a bare gnd safely. Its the quad/multiple switch type situations where I'll use the green rather than bare.
With metal boxes/old work I've grown fond of the Arlington BE1/2's to keep things inline. I used to use tape a lot, but it often slips off after a period of time and leaves a sticky mess on the device.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Tonyi
I am with you on this one, I hate going back on old tape that is not in place. Using the premade tails is quick and really does not cost too much unless you do as many houses as Wayne . It certainly does not cost as much as troubleshooting a bootleg neutral.
There is a 'rubberband' Thingee that I have seen, but it does not seem to have become very popular.
Pierre
[ December 15, 2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Tonyi
I am with you on this one, I hate going back on old tape that is not in place. Using the premade tails is quick and really does not cost too much unless you do as many houses as Wayne
. It certainly does not cost as much as troubleshooting a bootleg neutral.There is a 'rubberband' Thingee that I have seen, but it does not seem to have become very popular.
Pierre
[ December 15, 2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
There is also another way to help speed up the troubleshooting for afci's. At the panel, remove the neutral out of the de-energized afci breaker and float it. Now check for continuity between it and the ground bus. Actually I have started to do this prior to even terminating my wires into breakers. Also check hot to ground with the neurtral floating. If you get continuity from ground to neutral, then go find your mistake. If you see continuity from hot to ground, You got a good old fashion short circuit you need to fix.
There is also another way to help speed up the troubleshooting for afci's. At the panel, remove the neutral out of the de-energized afci breaker and float it. Now check for continuity between it and the ground bus. Actually I have started to do this prior to even terminating my wires into breakers. Also check hot to ground with the neurtral floating. If you get continuity from ground to neutral, then go find your mistake. If you see continuity from hot to ground, You got a good old fashion short circuit you need to fix.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Dam good idea Mac
Dam good idea Mac
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Today at the electric supply house I was told that (I think it is Seimens) has a breaker that works on shared neutrals. About $130.00.
Mike P.
Today at the electric supply house I was told that (I think it is Seimens) has a breaker that works on shared neutrals. About $130.00.
Mike P.
phil c
Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: AFCI Multiwire branch cirt.
Hi Cram
In answer to your post, the NEC doesnot require an retro-fit. Imho you are only responsible for the installing of that receptial outlet.
Phil c
Hi Cram
In answer to your post, the NEC doesnot require an retro-fit. Imho you are only responsible for the installing of that receptial outlet.
Phil c
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