AFCI Protection for Panel Upgrades and Changes

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westernexplorer

westernexplorer

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Electrical Inspector failed my panel change because he said I didn't install AFCI breakers in the new panel. I mentioned the exception with the 6 ft rule and he said, that doesn't say anything about replacement of the overcurrent device. I said with an AFCI the breakers keep tripping. He also said NEC 110.7 requires wiring integrity and doesn't allow short circuits or ground faults. Which is why he will not approve until the breakers are installed and the ground faults are removed. How can the AHJ do this?? Florida doesn't amend the NEC..
 
That's why there is an appeal process and everyone has a supervisor; politely ask the inspector to arrange a site visit with his.
 
I had the same thing happen to me two weeks ago. I had to eat $1000.00 in afci breakers plus the labor. Luckily it was a small house. I had a couple of afci’s that were tripping and had to install afci receptacles.


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westernexplorer said:
Electrical Inspector failed my panel change because he said I didn't install AFCI breakers in the new panel. I mentioned the exception with the 6 ft rule and he said, that doesn't say anything about replacement of the overcurrent device. I said with an AFCI the breakers keep tripping. He also said NEC 110.7 requires wiring integrity and doesn't allow short circuits or ground faults. Which is why he will not approve until the breakers are installed and the ground faults are removed. How can the AHJ do this?? Florida doesn't amend the NEC..
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If it is tripping because there is ground faults...he has more reason to mention 110.7, but if they are tripping on AFCI function 110.7 doesn't mention that sort of fault condition.

The mentioned six foot rule is not about about replacing overcurrent devices, it is about whether AFCI protection is required or not when you only disturbed a specifically described portion of the branch circuit but otherwise did not modify the branch circuit.
 
1) Any inspection corrections beyond original scope, right or wrong, would require Change Order to prior contract. With no contract for an Electrical Service upgrade, or legal license to contract in your state, you are on the hook for everything, for free. Grasshopper learns from mistake.

2) If new-work code NEC 201.12 "Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications" won't apply, Inspectors may use replacement code NEC 406.4(D)(4), to get AFCI protection for plug replacements / not original, if replaced in rooms requiring A/GFCI's by new-work code.

Ask inspector, rather than using AFCI breakers, can you use AFCI / GFCI or Dual Function Outlet Branch Devices described in replacement-codes 406.4(D)(1-4).

3) Combination inspectors in my area may not get electrical code, much less New-work vs Replacement code requirements. Therefore, you may need to speak with senior planner/engineer/building official, who can clarify requirements for the inspector.
 
We've been fortunate enough to not have to AFCI everything yet, but I would hate to have to use them on every panel change. I wonder how many customers will decide to keep their existing services instead?

It seems to me that a new panel in an existing, compliant-when-wired house shouldn't be required to use them, any more than new GFCIs are required. Where is Grandfather when we need him?
 
What building code is Florida on? What are the afci breakers tripping on? Overcurrent, ground fault if applicable, or arc fault?

if you do not have a local or state amendment or something in the building code modifying the language in 210.12, it seems to me that you are going to eat this one.

Since the advent of afci breakers, we have included language in the contract that if arc fault breakers trip due to branch circuit wiring, or appliances, in other words something that is not endemic to a poor panel installation or breaker/receptacle change out, that additional charges may be incurred to troubleshoot and correct these problems.

Such language is not limited to arc fault breakers... If we quote a price to change a panel, and a regular breaker trips due to a short circuit, that short circuit is a problem outside the scope of the panel change out.
 
We are on the 2014 NEC with no amendments. I'm gonna fix the wiring. The tripping is most likely from downstream neutral to ground connections. Just gonna put in my proposal that any issues with existing wiring will be dealt with on an hourly basis. I can't walk away knowing the system has issues.
 
westernexplorer said:
Electrical Inspector failed my panel change because he said I didn't install AFCI breakers in the new panel. I mentioned the exception with the 6 ft rule and he said, that doesn't say anything about replacement of the overcurrent device. I said with an AFCI the breakers keep tripping. He also said NEC 110.7 requires wiring integrity and doesn't allow short circuits or ground faults. Which is why he will not approve until the breakers are installed and the ground faults are removed. How can the AHJ do this?? Florida doesn't amend the NEC..
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Do you have a way to appeal this?
 
westernexplorer said:
Electrical Inspector failed my panel change ..He also said NEC 110.7 requires wiring integrity and doesn't allow short circuits or ground faults. ..
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This is amazing for an inspection department. If local policy / municipality forces fuse-box replacements to meet NEC 110.7, under local amendments or AHJ authority, they can red tag until change-out shops go into crawl spaces, and to every outlet, until those AFCI's hold.
 
westernexplorer said:
We are on the 2014 NEC with no amendments. I'm gonna fix the wiring. The tripping is most likely from downstream neutral to ground connections. Just gonna put in my proposal that any issues with existing wiring will be dealt with on an hourly basis. I can't walk away knowing the system has issues.
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I would agree with all of this, noting that while the afci breakers may be required, and it's on you to put them in the panel for required circuits/ares, there is nothing requiring me to hook up the branch circuit wiring to those breakers.

At least in the 2008 NEC there is nothing in 110.7 regarding Arc faults, and furthermore here you're not required to bring the entire structure up to current code with just a panel change out, nor would you be required to fix any and all problems in the existing branch circuit wiring to make those breakers hold.

Like others have mentioned, I would definitely check with his immediate supervisor, or higher up if necessary. A 15-minute phone call may save you $1,000... Maybe not, though it is not a waste of time in any circumstance.

Eta: I am aware that Florida is on the 2014 NEC, however what building code version are you on? 2015 IRC? Does Florida have any rehabilitation codes? You may find more ammunition there...
 
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peter d said:
This is why you don't get permits. :thumbsup:
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My State has online Forms to report any violation of Permits/License/Workers Comp./ & Unlicensed Advertising, vehicle magnets, which can be $1000,fine + jail.

When our licensed EC's are not working, they watch every house in their neighborhood for a panel change, and report to code enforcement if missing permits. They have followed me to jobs, tried to peak in windows, or get inside. My clients have thrown them off the property more than once.
 
ramsy said:
My State has online Forms to report any violation of Permits/License/Workers Comp./ & Unlicensed Advertising, vehicle magnets, which can be $1000,fine + jail.

When our licensed EC's are not working, they watch every house in their neighborhood for a panel change, and report to code enforcement if missing permits. They have followed me to jobs, tried to peak in windows, or get inside. My clients have thrown them off the property more than once.
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Pretty sad state of affairs when everyone is a snitch.
 
peter d said:
I would never live in a communist enclave like California full of snitches in the first place.
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A repeatedly collapsing housing market of overvalued properties, currently on fire, in a communist enclave, full of snitches.
 
westernexplorer said:
I tried that... Chief Electrical Inspector and Building Official agreed with Inspector.. I'm gonna just fix it....
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I honestly admire your decision, but you shouldn't have to bear it alone. I would bring the customer into the mix, explain your dilemma with the AHJ (and our general agreement that they're wrong), and offer something like you'll cover the labor (not including trouble-shooting) if they cover the materials.
 
IMHO ,
you should not have told the inspector the AFCI type trip. Now that he knows that there is a likelihood that the circuit has a ground fault or a neutral improperly connected he does have right to hang his hat on 110.7. AFCI usually will not immediately trip unless a ground fault.
 
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