AFCI Protection for Receptacle Swap.

[Thomas R]

Just to confirm, and since my codebook is not at hand, since 2017 when a receptacle(s) is changed out in a residence that device or circuit needs arc-fault protection if in a room where AFCI protection is required. Two wire, three wire, doesn't matter. Change out a grounded receptacle from a 1980s house, arc-fault protection required at the breaker or individual device.

 

[augie47]

That is the way I read 406.4(D)(4)

 

[ramsy]

Since 1993 NFPA-70 Electrical Code cycle, §406.4(D) has required replacement receptacles follow new GFCI, and AFCI requirements since 2011 cycle. Tamper Resist. replacements in 406.12 may have came after 2011 cycle.

Property insurance wont cover unqualified person's replacing the wrong outlets, just like dead batteries in expired smoke detectors are not covered.

 

[infinity]

For us NJ has deleted this requirement.

 

[hbiss]

For us NJ has deleted this requirement.

And rightly so.

-Hal

 

[ramsy]

For us NJ has deleted this requirement.

Since you raised this issue, I'd like to know what happened to Union influence in New Jersey, is the place completely run by Merrit-Shop builders now?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Since 1993 NFPA-70 Electrical Code cycle, §406.4(D) has required replacement receptacles follow new GFCI, and AFCI requirements since 2011 cycle. Tamper Resist. replacements in 406.12 may have came after 2011 cycle.

Property insurance wont cover unqualified person's replacing the wrong outlets, just like dead batteries in expired smoke detectors are not covered.

I would love to see that language in an actual insurance policy....I have searched many times, and have never been able to find language like that.

 

[ramsy]

Building-code violations not disclosed to the insurer, are not covered.

https://www.atgf.com/underwriting/news/building-code-violations

Exclusion from Coverage 1(a)(ii) provides that ATG will not pay loss or damage, costs, attorneys’ fees, or expenses that arise by reason of:

1.(a) Any law, ordinance, permit, or governmental regulation.. ..or the effect of any violation of these laws, ordinances, or governmental regulations.

 

[LarryFine]

Exclusion from Coverage 1(a)(ii) provides that ATG will not pay loss or damage, costs, attorneys’ fees, or expenses that arise by reason of:

1.(a) Any law, ordinance, permit, or governmental regulation.. ..or the effect of any violation of these laws, ordinances, or governmental regulations.

That sounds like they won't cover expenses associated with compliance with laws, etc.

 

[ramsy]

That sounds like they won't cover expenses associated with compliance with laws, etc.

A phone# is available at that ATG link to clarify what is meant by, "will not pay loss or damage"

I have searched many times, and have never been able to find language like that.

Unlike most home owners, commercial property managers who scrub down contractors seem acutely aware how claims get denied.

Insurance-policy may also use less plain language than their underwriters, like ATG in your home town of Chicago.

If all real-estate transactions were put on notice that insurance was void without disclosing building-code violations, demand for expert builders could make disqualifying claims harder. That could disrupt the insurance-underwriting industry, exploiting billions in premiums with token-enforceable liability.

Much of the insurance industry is regulated by State agencies, frequently targeted for defunding with other consumer protections.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was converted into a perfect-toothless specimen of what "Made America great again", when the masses must pay to make regulator enforcement an acceptable cost for dirty business. A superior trickle-down economy requires superior deregulation of exploit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Building-code violations not disclosed to the insurer, are not covered.

https://www.atgf.com/underwriting/news/building-code-violations

Exclusion from Coverage 1(a)(ii) provides that ATG will not pay loss or damage, costs, attorneys’ fees, or expenses that arise by reason of:

1.(a) Any law, ordinance, permit, or governmental regulation.. ..or the effect of any violation of these laws, ordinances, or governmental regulations.

That is title insurance and not property damage insurance.

Also I have never lived in Chicago, and would never even think about living in a large city...my little town of 20k is just fine.

 

[ramsy]

That is title insurance and not property damage insurance.

Also I have never lived in Chicago, and would never even think about living in a large city...my little town of 20k is just fine.

Since you raised the issue, what is your objection to underwriters in your home State of Illinois that "will not pay loss or damage" for unreported violations?

Please advise why law abiding contractors would object to this: unless in the business of voiding property insurance; exploiting unqualified laborers, without Workmans' Comp., Unemployment insurance, or Payroll services?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Since you raised the issue, what is your objection to underwriters in your home State of Illinois that "will not pay loss or damage" for unreported violations?

Please advise why law abiding contractors would object to this: unless in the business of voiding property insurance; exploiting unqualified laborers, without Workmans' Comp., Unemployment insurance, or Payroll services?

Again that is title insurance which is required be the lender, but is pretty much worthless to the buyer of the title insurance. It has nothing to do with a damaging event that is covered by the property insurance, which my comment was about.

I have no objection to underwriters doing what ever the want too, as long as it is in the documents. As with everything, it is buyer beware.

 

[suemarkp]

Its seems quite difficult to enforce, and could be abused by insurance companies not to pay. How would you feel if you hired a contractor to do something, but they missed one little code requirement, your house burns down, and the insurance finds that and kicks out your claim? How do they know if a receptacle has been replaced (hey, that charred outlet looks like a 2019 model -- should have had AFCI, sorry, we're not covering). But hey, all those 59 cent push in receptacles from Ace Hardware from 1980 are all fine and were not the problem...

Judging by the questions we get on this forum, there are plenty of professionals who are a bit confused with what the code says or might miss a detail (and I'm glad they are here getting answers). Even tougher are the grey area things. There are questions here where even people can't agree on what the right answer is.

People shop price. I don't know how many "contractors" say you don't need a permit when I know you do (its a lot). They will say they are doing everything that everyone else does, but it will be a lie.

 

[hbiss]

Just to confirm, and since my codebook is not at hand, since 2017 when a receptacle(s) is changed out in a residence that device or circuit needs arc-fault protection if in a room where AFCI protection is required.

The owner just gets a handyperson to replace the receptacles with non-tamper resistant ones. If anybody asks "they were always there".

Please advise why law abiding contractors would object to this: unless in the business of voiding property insurance; exploiting unqualified laborers, without Workmans' Comp., Unemployment insurance, or Payroll services?

Because it's driven by the NEC making ridiculous requirements. Who the hell is going to pay thousands to replace a house full of receptacles while they are painting?

And nobody gives a RA about insurance except apparently you because you bring it up in almost everything you write

-Hal

 

[ramsy]

Again that is title insurance which is required be the lender, but is pretty much worthless to the buyer of the title insurance. It has nothing to do with a damaging event that is covered by the property insurance, which my comment was about.

I have no objection to underwriters doing what ever the want too, as long as it is in the documents. As with everything, it is buyer beware.

Yes, I see ATG is Title Insurance that covers recorded building-code violations, not allowed by other property insurance, subject to hidden, latent, or construction defect law.

If illegal construction is omitted from sellers closing statement, the majority of "Cavet Venditor" States --including iIllinois-- hold sellers liable.

Only a handful of "Cavet Emptor" States indemnify sellers who omit defects.

 

[ramsy]

Its seems quite difficult to enforce, and could be abused by insurance companies not to pay. How would you feel if you hired a contractor to do something, but they missed one little code requirement, your house burns down, and the insurance finds that and kicks out your claim? How do they know if a receptacle has been replaced (hey, that charred outlet looks like a 2019 model -- should have had AFCI, sorry, we're not covering). But hey, all those 59 cent push in receptacles from Ace Hardware from 1980 are all fine and were not the problem...

Taken from Herman & Wells:

We see smoke damage and fire claims denied for a wide range of reasons. Insurance companies will sometimes accuse their insureds of starting the fire intentionally. Other denials are based on “protective safeguard” policy forms, which insurance companies use to deny claims if there was no fire alarm or smoke detector. Denial letters cite to vacancy provisions, insurance application answers, and concealment provisions.

Taken from Tetzel Law:

Fire insurance claims may be denied over errors made on a form or simply from lack of enough documentation that you are able to provide. The insurer, though, does have to offer an explanation for why your claim was denied.

 

[ramsy]

The owner just gets a handyperson to replace the receptacles with non-tamper resistant ones. If anybody asks "they were always there".

When restoring power to the fridge, or laundry my service work is 1 circuit at a time, usually within 2 hours. Never any complaints about the fancy reset button or AFCI breaker.

..Who the hell is going to pay thousands to replace a house full of receptacles while they are painting?

My clients are the ones that hang up on you.

Except when they ask me about permits, I agree its required, and they hang up on me.

And nobody gives a RA about insurance except apparently you because you bring it up in almost everything you write

What's your excuse for enforcing code when no inspector is watching?