AFCI Q- circuit neutral not terminated on breaker

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sw_ross

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While doing a service call at a house that had existing AFCI breakers I noticed that on one of the circuits the neutral was connected to the neutral bar and not the breaker. This was not a circuit that I was dealing with.

I'm assuming that someone was having a nuisance tripping issue and solved the issue by moving the neutral wire.

I'm also assuming this over-rides the AF capability of the breaker, and that OL functions remain intact?

I didn't try the AF test button, but I'm assuming the circuit would remain energized if I did?

I have to go back to this house and wanted to know more before messing with that circuit. I don't want to inherit some other electricians nightmare.

I'll probably inform the HO of the issue and let them deal with that electrician.
 
Unless it were a newer GE AFCI or from what some have said the newest BR series AFCI's - the circuit neutral conductor must land on the AFCI neutral load terminal. If not you will trip the AFCI on ground fault protection function any time you have a load over ~30 mA.
 
Are you sure it landed on the noodle bar" Some of the newer AFCI's have a connection directly to the neutral bar instead of a pigtail. It may have appeared to go under the breaker directly to the bar, but it might be on the breaker instead.

breaker-square-d-amp-1-pole-dual-function-circuit-arc-fault-receptacle-afci-gfci-code-brea.jpg
 
I’ll have to double check.

It appeared to go to the neutral bar...

The other thing I’m wondering is maybe the afci pigtail wasn’t even terminated?

Would the breaker/circuit operate without the pigtail terminated and the branch circuit neutral terminated to the neutral bar?

I’ll have to double check what I thought I saw the next time I’m there.
 
kwired said:
Unless it were . . . the newest BR series AFCI's - the circuit neutral conductor must land on the AFCI neutral load terminal.
Click to expand...
The Eaton BR combination type AFCI MUST have the neutral landed on the AFCI breaker neutral load terminal. Please read the BR installation instructions at this post by peter d.
 
sw_ross said:
While doing a service call at a house that had existing AFCI breakers I noticed that on one of the circuits the neutral was connected to the neutral bar and not the breaker. This was not a circuit that I was dealing with.

I'm assuming that someone was having a nuisance tripping issue and solved the issue by moving the neutral wire.

I'm also assuming this over-rides the AF capability of the breaker, and that OL functions remain intact?

I didn't try the AF test button, but I'm assuming the circuit would remain energized if I did?

I have to go back to this house and wanted to know more before messing with that circuit. I don't want to inherit some other electricians nightmare.

I'll probably inform the HO of the issue and let them deal with that electrician.
Click to expand...

Sq D, Siemens, Eaton, GE & Leviton combination-type AFCI circuit breakers cannot be generalized as behaving the same. They all have differences, one from another, that are important to understand.

To answer your above questions, one must first know the manufacture name, make and model of AFCI.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Sq D, Siemens, Eaton, GE & Leviton combination-type AFCI circuit breakers cannot be generalized as behaving the same. They all have differences, one from another, that are important to understand.

To answer your above questions, one must first know the manufacture name, make and model of AFCI.
Click to expand...

If you're willing to spend the time composing, I would love to know the Reader's Digest version of the differences.
 
oldsparky52 said:
I would love to know the Reader's Digest version of the differences.
Click to expand...

Frankly, I would like to know that also. I probably know 30% of it.

My point, however, is, rather than trying to know-it-all, or generalizing, one must have the information of the actual AFCI breaker one is working with.

All AFCIs are going through firmware and software version "improvements" that result in behavior changes, upon occasion. As a result, the five manufacturer's seven different models will have, each, several different versions with differing behavior. And, in my opinion, nobody is keeping track, in one place, of all these myriad changes in AFCI features and behavior.

It would be like trying to document the differences between laptop PCs between 2005 and 2019 . . . too much info. And it would continue to increase as new versions roll out from the manufacturers.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Sq D, Siemens, Eaton, GE & Leviton combination-type AFCI circuit breakers cannot be generalized as behaving the same. They all have differences, one from another, that are important to understand.

.
Click to expand...

Good luck finding anyone willing to explain the functionality differences Al

~RJ~
 
al hildenbrand said:
All AFCIs are going through firmware and software version "improvements" that result in behavior changes, upon occasion. As a result, the five manufacturer's seven different models will have, each, several different versions with differing behavior. And, in my opinion, nobody is keeping track, in one place, of all these myriad changes in AFCI features and behavior.

.
Click to expand...

We'd love to read more.....:p ~RJ~
 
al hildenbrand said:
The Eaton BR combination type AFCI MUST have the neutral landed on the AFCI breaker neutral load terminal. Please read the BR installation instructions at this post by peter d.
Click to expand...

A technicality outside of the point I was trying to make there. My point was if it is a unit with GFP incorporated into it, the load neutral must pass through the GFP sensing circuit or else the unbalance current through the GFP components will cause it to trip.
 
sw_ross said:
Would the breaker/circuit operate without the pigtail terminated and the branch circuit neutral terminated to the neutral bar?
Click to expand...

My best guess is most will operate as a thermal - magnetic breaker, but not connecting the neutral pigtail means no power to the logic components, so any AFCI or GFCI components will not function without power to the logic circuit.

I remember experimenting one time with a Homeline 2 pole GFCI breaker to see what happens with certain combinations of errors or malfunctions of supply volts. Pretty certain not connecting the neutral pigtail on that one essentially made it a rather expensive thermal mag breaker. It let power through as long as the handle was in "on" position. You could not get it to trip with test button or by introducing an actual (low current) ground fault condition. Did not try to introduce a high current fault - but supposedly it still would function as a standard thermal-mag breaker.
 
al hildenbrand said:
The Eaton BR combination type AFCI MUST have the neutral landed on the AFCI breaker neutral load terminal. Please read the BR installation instructions at this post by peter d.
kwired said:
A technicality outside of the point I was trying to make there. My point was if it is a unit with GFP incorporated into it, the load neutral must pass through the GFP sensing circuit or else the unbalance current through the GFP components will cause it to trip.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Well I believe that was in your head, but it isn't in what you wrote:
kwired said:
Unless it were a newer GE AFCI or from what some have said the newest BR series AFCI's - the circuit neutral conductor must land on the AFCI neutral load terminal. If not you will trip the AFCI on ground fault protection function any time you have a load over ~30 mA.
Click to expand...
Thanks to Peter D we now have the most recent Eaton Installation Instructions for the Eaton BR combination-type AFCI and you can quote Eaton published statements rather than what some on the internet have said.

Your statement equates the BR to the GE which is factually misleading.

I'm trying to be helpful here, 'cause we've now crossed into three uniquely different installation instructions: 1) GE 2) Eaton BR & 3) All the others.
 
kwired said:
My best guess is most will operate as a thermal - magnetic breaker, but not connecting the neutral pigtail means no power to the logic components, so any AFCI or GFCI components will not function without power to the logic circuit.

.
Click to expand...

Up until GE's 'noodle be d*mned' debute , it was always assumed the chief operational component was a toroid , viable logic or not .....

al hildenbrand said:
I'm trying to be helpful here, 'cause we've now crossed into three uniquely different installation instructions: 1) GE 2) Eaton BR & 3) All the others.
Click to expand...

One wonders if they'd ever have done lunch together....

~RJ~
 
al hildenbrand said:
Well I believe that was in your head, but it isn't in what you wrote:

Thanks to Peter D we now have the most recent Eaton Installation Instructions for the Eaton BR combination-type AFCI and you can quote Eaton published statements rather than what some on the internet have said.

Your statement equates the BR to the GE which is factually misleading.

I'm trying to be helpful here, 'cause we've now crossed into three uniquely different installation instructions: 1) GE 2) Eaton BR & 3) All the others.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my point was still that if there is GFP incorporated all circuit conductors must must pass through the GFP component. I haven't got a clue how the different AFCI's work and whether or not the load side neutral must connect to the device or not for it to work properly. Yes instructions of the BR say to land it there, they don't say why or if it will not work if you don't. From recollection of other posts on this topic I think even GE at least recommends you land the load side neutral on the device, but who knows if that changes peformance much if any? It apparently isn't an absolute necessity or it would cause issues with the MWBC's.
 
kwired said:
From recollection of other posts on this topic I think even GE at least recommends you land the load side neutral on the device, but who knows if that changes peformance much if any? It apparently isn't an absolute necessity or it would cause issues with the MWBC's.
Click to expand...

What you write does not reflect knowledge of the GE Instructions and is misleading, Kwired, this is NOT a mystery. GE publishes the answer to your bafflement. GE DOES NOT recommend, one way or the other, where to land the branch circuit load neutral conductor.

This PDF GE Advantage Brochure shows the wiring hookup options on page three.

The blue insert box in the middle of the bottom of Page 3 of the GE Advantage Brochure says clearly that the landing on the breaker load neutral terminal is optional. OPTIONAL.
 
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