AFCI required for the kitchen
- Thread starter Ponchik
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
There is nothing in the NEC that requires AFCI protection of the kitchen SABC circuits, assuming that they only serve the kitchen. There are other rooms that require SABC, but there is no requirement that these other rooms be served by the same SABCs that serve the kitchen.
Assuming the SABC serve the kitchen only.
But according to 210.11(C)(1) & 210.52(B)(1) the SABC must serve the dining room and the living room which are rooms included on the list 210.12(B).
So if I have only two SABC then one of them has to be AFCI protected? Do I understand it incorrectly?
But according to 210.11(C)(1) & 210.52(B)(1) the SABC must serve the dining room and the living room which are rooms included on the list 210.12(B).
So if I have only two SABC then one of them has to be AFCI protected? Do I understand it incorrectly?
Last edited:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If you choose to only have two SABC and you do have a dining room - then yes the one serving the dining room will require AFCI.
I don't know where you come up with the living room being a room required on SABC. Living room is not in 210.51(B) or permitted to be on with those circuits.
I am sorry the living room is not on the list. I was more thinking in terms of similar rooms so living room came to my mind.
So, at least one of the Kitchen circuits has to be AFCI.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Let's just say the kitchen circuits do not have to be AFCI, but if they are to be on same circuit as dining room they will be AFCI.
But one of the SABC has to serve the dining room doesn't it?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Yes, but you are also allowed more than two SABC's if you so desire. So if you choose to only run two SABC then at least one of them has to supply outlets in the dining room if there is a dining room. If you do not want AFCI supplying kitchen outlets you can always make the dining room a separate SABC.
Two SABCs is the minimum...... not the required amount. You can use two SABC's, but if you do, then one must serve the DR and must be AFCI'd.
You are allowed to install 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 41,..... 952 SABCs if you like. Only those that serve the dining room are required to be AFCI'd.
You are allowed to install 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 41,..... 952 SABCs if you like. Only those that serve the dining room are required to be AFCI'd.
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
How true. The only down side is that you have to include 1500 VA for every SABC in the load calculation. As for the AFCI, love 'em or hate 'em, we might as well get used to them-I only see the required use of them growing in the future.
fisherelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Va
If you choose to run 952 SABCs you may find that you need to increase the number of breaker spaces available in your service.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
It also adds nearly 1500 KVA to your load calc. But you can apply demand factors from 240.22 so you can reduce the SABC portion of your load calc to around 527 KVA. You still need more than a 2000 amp feeder for SABC's alone @ 120/240 single phase.
I agree.
My original post was if anyone has been cited for not having the dining room circuit on the SABC AND be AFCI protected.
None of the local inspectors are asking or even looking for any of the above. They just look to see if kitchen has 2 (20A) circuits.
Lessee.... the last house I wired I installed 952 SABCs, 217 Laundry circuits, 479 Bath circuits, 1,672 lighting circuits, 2,498 receptacle circuits, 49 smoke detector circuits......... :lol:
Jortz
Member
- Location
- Franklin sq. NY
I find in this case it is just easier and more reliable to run a third 20 amp AFCI protected SABC just to cover the dining room and kitchinette area.
andyselec@aol.com
Member
- Location
- durham,nc
- Occupation
- Electrical contractor
If most heat generating kitchen appliance's use more than 50% of a SABC then why would you only install 2 circuits? You should put min 3 SABC , one for refrig and a seperate one for dining room (which needs to be on AFCI.)
Because the NEC madates a minimum, and some homes are built to be as low-cost as possible. This means the EC installs two SABCs because it's perfecly legal.
And cheap.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
We are also gambling that people will not use every appliance they own at the same time. There are times when that that will be wrong, there are also other people that will not even have enough appliances to overload two circuits if they did use them all at same time. Plus heat generating appliances generally either cycle while in use or are a short cycle use design (like a basic toaster).
So unless you have a kitchen large enough to have several cooks using it at same time - two circuits is quite often plenty of power. This is for dwellings only. A family that throws together a big Thanksgiving or other big parties could have higher demands, but this is likely only a problem a few times a year and not every day, but a good designer will make it work for them.
Sometimes you just cannot win.
I remember a church kitchen I wired.... put 9 receps on 3 circuits down the long c'top. They went 1-3-5-1-3-5-1-3-5. As soon as they started to use the kitchen, they started tripping breakers. Seems they thought plugging coffee pots and roasters into every third recep would be a good idea.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I learned very early in this trade that church kitchens get one receptacle per circuit. That is one place where no matter what you do you will get 1500 watt appliance plugged into any receptacle at any time.
Actually the main cooking area you may get away with more than one receptacle on a circuit but in any are where serving lines are likely to be, you need one 20 amp circuit per receptacle.
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