AFCI required?

[jeff43222]

I just got hired to do some ceiling fan stuff for a friend of a friend. I'm not sure how many AFCIs are needed in this scenario, so I thought I'd let the experts weigh in.

He wants a new ceiling fan installed in the baby's bedroom. There is no light outlet in the ceiling right now; the room has a switched receptacle. The plan is to make the switched receptacle unswitched and control the new ceiling fan from a new switch in the existing switch box. Since this is a new outlet, I will be replacing whatever breaker is protecting the switched receptacle and putting in an AFCI breaker so the fan/light will be protected.

In the master bedroom, there is an existing ceiling fan, but the only control for it is a battery-operated remote control. Apparently the fan/light fixture is hard-wired to a power source somewhere. He wants to keep the existing fixture and have me wire in a couple of switch loops so the fan and light can be controlled from new switches in the existing switch box (and the switched receptacles will be converted to unswitched, like in the baby's room).

I'm wondering if the master bedroom work will require an AFCI breaker. It's not a new installation, just adding switch loops to an existing outlet. The panel wasn't labeled well, so I don't know if both bedrooms are on the same circuit.

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI required?

I would go with the "If you touch it, you bring it up to current codes" rule. Even though you are not modifying the ceiling fan outlet itself, you are "touching" the circuit. If you are lucky, is is on the same circuit as the baby's BR. If you are not lucky, then you need two AFCI breakers.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: AFCI required?

Originally posted by charlie b:
I would go with the "If you touch it, you bring it up to current codes" rule. Even though you are not modifying the ceiling fan outlet itself, you are "touching" the circuit. If you are lucky, is is on the same circuit as the baby's BR. If you are not lucky, then you need two AFCI breakers.

I concur.

 

[be4jc]

Re: AFCI required?

Lawers

 

[stud696981]

Re: AFCI required?

It's always good to error on the side of caution. However, you may want to check with the local AHJ. In my area, sometimes jobs like this are not required to have AFCIs unless it's a major remodel and new circuits are being pulled to the bedrooms. I'm not disagreeing with the others, just something to think about given the cost of the breakers and the fact you may need more then one.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: AFCI required?

Yeah, that's pretty much why I posted. Inspectors I've dealt with generally only require AFCIs for stuff that's totally new. The ceiling fan installation is in a jurisdiction I haven't worked in before, so I started wondering about what other ECs around the country do in situations like this.

I did a full-gut kitchen earlier this year, and when the GC called me back to do a full-gut bathroom on the same house, he mentioned that my kitchen work wound up killing an ungrounded receptacle in one of the bedrooms. I wasn't surprised, since the circuits were a mess, and I wound up having to rewire a lot more than just the kitchen when all was said and done (I had to upgrade the service, too). So I put in a new grounded receptacle in the bedroom to replace the one I killed, and I tapped into a new circuit to power it. I explained all this to the inspector when he came by for the bathroom rough-in, and he said I didn't need to put an AFCI on the circuit since it was a replacement. Yeah, technically it was, but it was on a brand-new circuit.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI required?

Could you put one AFCI in and use that same circuit to feed the new Sw?
(Get rid of the old feed)

Dave

 

[jimwalker]

Re: AFCI required?

my thinking says any new wire and afci required.If it was just change the fan no.Play it safe and put in the afci.Your risking too much in this sue crazy world.Million dollars just for HOT coffee.And she wanted fries with that

[ September 15, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: AFCI required?

Originally posted by davedottcom:
Could you put one AFCI in and use that same circuit to feed the new Sw?
(Get rid of the old feed)

Dave

I thought of that, but I think I'd run into box-fill problems. The HO wants to use the existing switch boxes, and they are currently wired with power going to the switch first, then to the outlets. If I wanted to tap into the circuit that I know has to have AFCI protection, I'd have to run another cable with an unswitched hot to the other switch box, and that would result in more volume than the box could handle.

I sent an e-mail to the HO asking him to check which circuit(s) the devices in question are on. Maybe I'll luck out and find out that everything is already on the same circuit. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: AFCI required?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
my thinking says any new wire and afci required.If it was just change the fan no.Play it safe and put in the afci.Your risking too much in this sue crazy world.Million dollars just for HOT coffee.And she wanted fries with that

 

[jimwalker]

Re: AFCI required?

I remember that white stuff.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: AFCI required?

Originally posted by jeff43222:
If I wanted to tap into the circuit that I know has to have AFCI protection ... that would result in more volume than the box could handle.

Not likely if you replace the existing box with a deep 2-gang old-work box.

 

[jes25]

Re: AFCI required?

I just completed a job like this today the there were two beds with sw. plugs, I opened em up to a two gang deep one fan controller and one switch for the existing plug. The first bed I put on an AFCI on existing circuit then ran a feed over to the second bed only a few feet away and used that to feed the new fan. The switch for the plug in the same box was on the old unAFCI circuit. So the two new outlets are on an AFCI and I saved 35 bucks.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: AFCI required?

Originally posted by LarryFine:

Originally posted by jeff43222:
If I wanted to tap into the circuit that I know has to have AFCI protection ... that would result in more volume than the box could handle.

Not likely if you replace the existing box with a deep 2-gang old-work box.

I thought of that one, too, but the HO isn't interested in changing out the boxes. I think I may have to convince him that it's necessary.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: AFCI required?

Jeff, are you saying they want a combo light/fan control, a new 14/3 (at least) and all of the original wires (3 14-2's or a 14-2 and a 14-3, at least) in a single-gang box?

That's a tall order. Let's see: 6 ccc's, 1 egc, i dev, that's 9. You'd need 18 cu.in. I'd recommend a Carlon B120R or equivalent. You'll need the volume for the dual control.

A single-gang nail-on box can be removed from a wall in about five minutes with a reciprocating saw, wire connections and all. In my opinion, the customer is wrong, but since they're always right, just say "no" to leaving the box.

I suggest telling them the alternatives, such as retracting the existing cables to attic and/or crawl-space areas for junction boxes, or extensive drywall work.

 

[jes25]

Re: AFCI required?

You dont need a sawzall to remove a nailon box just a screwdriver to pry it off. Do you guys use "smart boxes" for this stuff? It works great because it has screws on the inside that go into the stud.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI required?

Originally posted by jes25:
You dont need a sawzall to remove a nailon box just a screwdriver to pry it off. Do you guys use "smart boxes" for this stuff? It works great because it has screws on the inside that go into the stud.

You're right, the trick is to cut the 2 gang hole BEFORE you try to remove the old single gang box! Much easier.
And I bet those smart boxes work great, they look like a great idea.

Dave

 

[normbac]

Re: AFCI required?

Ill bet that if you check the smoke alarm you will find the circuit to the existing ceiling fan

 

[davedottcom]

Re: AFCI required?

Good call Normbc, I know I Always put the SA's on the M. Bed circuit.