AFCI, Service Change and HR Extension

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al

al

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Minnesota
On a service upgrade would I need to install AFCI breakers for a home run circuit extensions, say 6' long, for the purpose of connecting to the existing home runs? This may have been cover in another thread but i can't find it.


Did You Know:
ITE= Inverse Time Element
 
AFCI, Service Change and HR Extension

It DOES depend on the inspector. Most of the time, the inspector does NOT require the AFCIs, but there have been times where the inspector did require them. Some times, as you all know, it's nearly impossible to install them when the circuits are sharing a neutral (without running new circuits).

I would argue that it should NOT be required, because in a service change, you're upgrading the electrical SERVICE, not the branch circuit wiring.

In either case, this needs to be addressed in the code book because we really need to know how to bid work like this. If AFCIs are required, the cost of a service change can go up quite a bit.

buzzbar
 
480sparky said:
The NEC is silent on the issue, so call the inspector or AHJ for their interpretation of the issue.
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I'm not so sure the nec is not silent on the issue. 210.12 (B)All 120-volt , single phase, 15-and 20 ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms,sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type , installed to provide protection of the branch circuit. (please forgive any typos I just did this the long way).

I happen to believe that some local inspectors or AHJ's just misread or do not care about what exactly the code says in this regard, they have their minds made up already.
 
macmikeman said:
I'm not so sure the nec is not silent on the issue. .......
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So if you do a service change, you've got to completely rewire the entire dwelling to current codes? Even rip out all the K&T if the house is that old?

I have yet to work in any AHJs jurisdiction that would require that.
 
480sparky said:
So if you do a service change, you've got to completely rewire the entire dwelling to current codes? Even rip out all the K&T if the house is that old?

I have yet to work in any AHJs jurisdiction that would require that.
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Nope, I am saying (or trying to at least) that AFCI's not required to just change a panel or a service. Install some outlets in the above areas and then they are. Sorry for the confusion.
 
I would say you have too add the AFCI, According to the rule if you add an outlet at the end of the branch circuit then you would have to add the AFCI at the beginning of the branch circuit if it was extended. Gray area on both

- JWC
 
check code cycle,then call AHJ.We are still on 05t and the inspector says yes on bedroom AFCIs on a panel change. On MWBC we just tap them together in the panel and install the AFCI
 
JWCELECTRIC said:
I would say you have too add the AFCI, According to the rule if you add an outlet at the end of the branch circuit then you would have to add the AFCI at the beginning of the branch circuit if it was extended. Gray area on both

- JWC
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JWC, What rule are you refering to?
 
macmikeman said:
I'm not so sure the nec is not silent on the issue. 210.12 (B)All 120-volt , single phase, 15-and 20 ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms,sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type , installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
Click to expand...
But, the work described in the OP is not installing 15- or 20-a circuits for outlets in those areas. They're already installed. He's just making the existing circuits (and existing outlets) reach the new panel location.
 
JWCELECTRIC said:
I would say you have too add the AFCI, According to the rule if you add an outlet at the end of the branch circuit then you would have to add the AFCI at the beginning of the branch circuit if it was extended. Gray area on both.
Click to expand...
Not gray at all to me. There's a differenve between adding an outlet and extending the HR with no new outlets.
 
fireryan said:
We have done that many times and never have been required to change to afci. but like said before im sure it depends on the inspector
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It really shouldn't depend on the inspector. The code says what it says. INSTALLING outlet....need AFCI

FWIW are there ANY inspectors reading here that would require AFCIs in this situation.
 
LarryFine said:
Not gray at all to me. There's a differenve between adding an outlet and extending the HR with no new outlets.
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Larry,

You are adding a new portion of the branch circuit (extending) from new panel to the existing branch circuit correct! Need a AFCI per 210.12(B) where it says (All) that would mean all of the new part of the branch circuit. How does the NEC discribe All?

The NEC discribes a branch circuit as conductors from OCPD to outlet(s). when I add add an outlet to an existing circuit I am tapping off the circuit, I am not running new from OCPD. You can't say one way then not the other.

- JWC
 
My point is that the rule specifies circuits supplying outlets we install. If we're not installing any new outlets on this circuit, the rule doesn't apply to that existing circuit.

Extending the supply end of the circuit is not adding any outlets. Turning an existing panel into a sub-panel also doesn't mean everything must be treated like new work.

There is one exception to my argument: when making a panel into a sub-panel. If there are 3-wire major-appliance circuits, those should be converted to 4-wire circuits.
 
LarryFine said:
But, the work described in the OP is not installing 15- or 20-a circuits for outlets in those areas. They're already installed. He's just making the existing circuits (and existing outlets) reach the new panel location.
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No he is not installing new outlets, he is installing new branch circuit wiring supplying those outlets and that branch circuit is covered by 210.12.
 
LarryFine said:
My point is that the rule specifies circuits supplying outlets we install. If we're not installing any new outlets on this circuit, the rule doesn't apply to that existing circuit.
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Larry the rule applies to circuits supplying outlets not just the outlets.

Extending the supply end of the circuit is not adding any outlets. Turning an existing panel into a sub-panel also doesn't mean everything must be treated like new work.
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What if we relocate the panel across the room?

I will say there is a difference between what I think the inspector should enforce and the rules as written. :smile:
 
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