AFCI, Service Change and HR Extension

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Al,

From what I have heard, this subject held up the adoption of the 2008 until a few months ago. I'm glad they worded it the way they did. It seems to have more common sense written into it and less corporate greed, IMHO. Sometimes my faith in the guv'ment is restored, but not for too long. :wink:
 
al hildenbrand said:
Read the definition. A Lighting Outlet is:
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paul said:
WA state removed the guess work and clarified this in their amendments as follows:

012 Arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection.

(4) NEC 210.12(B) is amended to require AFCI protection only for dwelling unit bedroom spaces.

(a) Dwelling unit bedroom spaces include spaces that:

(i) Are used as the bedroom;

(ii) Are accessed only through the bedroom;

(iii) Are ancillary to the bedroom's function (e.g., closets, sitting areas, etc.); (iv) Contain branch circuits that supply 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere, outlets; and

(v) Are not bathrooms.

(b) If a new circuit(s) is added in an existing dwelling unit bedroom, an existing outlet(s) that is not connected to the new circuit(s) does not require arc-fault circuit interrupter protection if the outlet(s) was installed before December 1, 2005.

(c) If an existing circuit, installed before December 1, 2005, is extended, arc-fault circuit interrupter protection is not required.

(d) Arc-fault circuit interrupter protection is not required to be used for smoke or fire alarm outlets.
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It would be wise if the NEC would make changes to this also to eliminate the quess work
 
We do have amendments in MA but this is not one of them. Art 210,12(B) has been around since 2002. Im sure unresolved questions have come up before that should have been resolved like Paul in WA state.
 
Ah, so. MA.

Then M. D.'s reference to Rule 3 was dead on for you.
Rule 3. Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with this Code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this Code. The installation shall not create a violation of this Code, nor shall it increase the magnitude of an existing violation
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JWCELECTRIC said:
Ya! another MA guy, just need to update my profile a little. Another rule open for interpertation, maybe I will be OK after all.
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You may want to contact the Board of Fire Prevention , in Boston ,. they are the AHJ . I can tell you that the inspector of wires in my little corner of the Commonwealth does not view additions to existing circuits in the areas prescribed as requiring AFCI... We disagree on this.

Also , keep in mind that you own the work you do ,..until you are worm food,..the city or town has very limited liability...
 
M.D.

Thanks, I have done a little research on the AFCI rule and I an finding very little info from the one writing the code. Do you know if Code Panel #2 has more discription and explanation of how they interpet 210.12(B)?

- JWC
 
M. D. said:
. . . I can tell you that the inspector of wires in my little corner of the Commonwealth does not view additions to existing circuits in the areas prescribed as requiring AFCI... We disagree on this.
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Thanks, M. D., for saying this.
M. D. said:
Also , keep in mind that you own the work you do ,..until you are worm food,..the city or town has very limited liability...
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Also, your customer has to like you, and believe in you so much, that they will pay the extra price of wiring installation that is above NEC & MA AHJ minimum, and that they will choose your higher price over that of your competition (who will do the wiring at a lower cost cause they're only doing the NEC & AHJ minimum). And when wired to the minimum standard, you are as legally indemnified as when you wire to a higher personal standard.
 
OK, I'm an inspector and here is what we do in our jurisdiction. But first....WOW, I can't believe so many wild interpretations to the NEC.

Especially about if you upgrade the service then you don't have a supply (power) to the outlets and you have to upgrade to AFCI's ( believe that was pretty much what was said). In that line of thinking if you had a power outage then you would have to upgrade the entire house!

Anyway back on my original comment...in our jurisdiction we do not require any AFCI's when a service is upgraded. However we do ask that if at all possible we would like to see AFCI's installed if possible. If they can't and the customer doesn't want to pay the price for upgrading to AFCI's then that's OK.

I hope electrical contractors are explaining to their customers that this is all about safety and not just another govermental ploy to take money from their pockets!

On service change outs we do require GFCI's to be installed IF there are existing outlets were GFCI's are required.
 
GrayHeadedMule said:
In that line of thinking if you had a power outage then you would have to upgrade the entire house!
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That's a good one. I can just see "ambulance chasing lawyer" becoming synonymous with "storm chasing electrician" :wink: :D
GrayHeadedMule said:
I hope electrical contractors are explaining to their customers that this is all about safety and not just another governmental ploy to take money from their pockets!
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I'm still trying to figure out how to communicate the information. Besides what the AFCI is purported to do, there is what is does do, and there is what it is feared to do. I explain upfront that only the first "tripping AFCI" call back is free, and then, only if the cause is from what I did or provided and installed.
GrayHeadedMule said:
On service change outs we do require GFCI's to be installed IF there are existing outlets were GFCI's are required.
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Is that a local ordinance?
 
GreyHead,

The OP's question is on a service upgrade where he needs to add 6' of new branch circuit wiring to connect to existing brach circuit wiring, does it require to be protected with AFCI, In general other topics have come up in regard to 210.12(B)

I think most agree AFCI's are not required when just changing the OCPD on the service change.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Is that a local ordinance?
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Yes, local ordinance.

JWCELECTRIC said:
GreyHead,

The OP's question is on a service upgrade where he needs to add 6' of new branch circuit wiring to connect to existing brach circuit wiring, does it require to be protected with AFCI, In general other topics have come up in regard to 210.12(B)

I think most agree AFCI's are not required when just changing the OCPD on the service change.
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In my opinion you are not adding anything, you are extending.

LarryFine said:
"Are" required, or "would be" required if they were being installed now?
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GFCI's are required to be installed in areas where the code requires them under todays code and only IF an outlet is in place at the time of the upgrade. Like in a bathroom where an old light fixture has an receptacle on the light fixture itself. We don't require them to run a new circuit but we require them to unhook the receptacle.

We do not mandate contractors to run new circuits to a garage, kitchen or bath if they are non-existant.
 
I was just looking at the proposals for 2011 ,.. A guy named David Zinck , an inspector ,..has submitted a proposal that includes this

"...This requirement shall apply to new dwellings or new branch circuits in existing dwellings. It shall not apply to modifications of existing circuits in existing dwellings...."
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I hope the CMP will shed some light in their response.
 
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