AFCI Tester

[george t. everett]

Today I received a flyer from the supply house saying that they now stocking the Greenlee AFI-100 Arc fault & ground fault circuit interrupter tester. My question is has anyone used this unit & if so what are the up & down sides?

 

[wk]

Re: AFCI Tester

george,

I'm looking for the same information.
Take a look at the UL web site. http://www.ul.com/media/newsrel/nr092402.html.
wk

 

[tom baker]

Re: AFCI Tester

the greenlee is made by Fox Meter company. I've tried one, seems to work ok. It actually creates a fault to test the AFCI circuit and does GFCI tests as well. Using the test button on the AFCI only tests the internal circuitry.
The tester by Etcon has been recalled, and it states it is UL listed but it is not.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: AFCI Tester

There is also an AFCI tester made by Ideal. I saw one at a meeting I attended, but I don't know if they are in production yet. This one says that it creates an arc to test the AFCI.

Bill

[ May 08, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]

 

[bennie]

Re: AFCI Tester

This testing procedure reminds me of the old harassment game of a new apprentice.

The apprentice is assigned to test fuses and record the maximum current they will carry before melting.

He is instructed to place the ones that melt in the pass basket and the ones that don't in the failed basket.

My point is the test may be the final straw before failure. The only known logic is the AFCI was working before the test. After the test you are at square one again.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: AFCI Tester

It is my understanding that a GFCI tester has to leak only 5-mA of current to cause the device to trip while to test the arc fault may require a minimum 75 amp arc. Is this something that we want to be holding in our hands?

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: AFCI Tester

I just got a flyer from my supply house today stating that they are now stocking the Ideal circut/AFCI tester Model #IDX61155. Cost= $239.00. What a bargain.

 

[bennie]

Re: AFCI Tester

Todd: Lot of money to see the past and not the future.

Am I missing something? I always believed a test was to positively verify the proper operation of a device.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: AFCI Tester

No Bennie, I agree with you.

If you turn on a switch to a light and then turn it back off, there is only a certain amount of probability that the switch, bulb, and many other variables will respond in the same exact way again. It is an uncertainty principle.

I feel as you do that this especially holds true for the test functions like the GFCI tester, AFCI tester, overload testers, and so on.

Most likely it will perform the same function again, but it is not a guarantee.

 

[bennie]

Re: AFCI Tester

Bryan: I have a crystal ball, all I need is a UL listing and I,m rich

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI Tester

Originally posted by bennie:
Am I missing something? I always believed a test was to positively verify the proper operation of a device.

Am I missing something is an AFCI a one time use device like you compare it to here?

Originally posted by bennie:
This testing procedure reminds me of the old harassment game of a new apprentice.

The apprentice is assigned to test fuses and record the maximum current they will carry before melting.

He is instructed to place the ones that melt in the pass basket and the ones that don't in the failed basket.

My point is the test may be the final straw before failure. The only known logic is the AFCI was working before the test. After the test you are at square one again.

Almost any test could be the final straw, in my area you will see signs on the Highway that say "trucks test brakes" that too could be the final straw before brake failure, should they not test the brakes before heading down the hill?

When I use my meter I test it on a known live circuit, that is still no guarantee it will be OK when I need it, but I still do it.

In both these examples and IMO for the AFCI test odds are better that it will not be the final straw.

Is it your recommendation that we should not test anything as that could be the final straw?

 

[bennie]

Re: AFCI Tester

Bob: My point is... a safety device should be supervised. A means of determining status at all times. Like the surge protector for this computer.
Green light good, red light failed.

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI Tester

Well that makes more sense to me now, but that is not what it sounded like you where saying.

Take care, hope your doing well.

Bob

[ May 09, 2003, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[Thom Peterson]

Re: AFCI Tester

Bennie,

I don't agree with your analogy of the surge protector. Green I believe indicates that there is continuity. No guarntee the it will work if you get a surge.

 

[sjaniga]

Re: AFCI Tester

If you install a piece of equipment, and test it, you may never know if that piece of equipment will function the same again when needed, but doesnt it make you feel better in a sence that it worked when you left and that you did your job correct. what if you didnt test it, it fails at a later date, someone dies, and you didnt test something that can be tested. This is why we will do a walk through with the customer at the time a job is done, to document with the customer that when we are done, our work is complete and tests that can be done, are done, and "pass" some sort of standard. Luckily here in MI, we dont need to install AFCI's yet, becuase it is not been adopted in the MI resi code. Maybe next year.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: AFCI Tester

I think there's an additional level of abstraction in the AFCI. Referring to Bennie's apprentice harrassment game, it seems to me that the hand held tester is evaluating the apprentice's decision, not the fuse itself.

I'm having trouble with this.

The manufacturers, UL, CPSC, et. al. are giving only the crudest descriptions of the descrimination logic of the AFCI. Somehow the AFCI analyzes voltage and current waveforms and figures out the good (switching, brush arc, nonlinear, contact bounce, etc.) from the bad and then actuates the breaker OCP trip mechanism.

Now the testers are being sold that test what has not been described.

I need more than faith in UL, et.al., to demonstrate the efficacy of a hardware/software life safety device.

 

[bennie]

Re: AFCI Tester

Al: You are correct, the apprentices are evaluated by the length of time it takes them to realize they are being put on, plus the number of fuses trashed.

I agree when a device is designed for safety, I want assurance that it is functioning. If not, it's out of here.