AFCI woes

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jemsvcs

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AFCIs and old work mix about as well as oil and water. Any ideas, comments, gripes, etc...on dealing with adding AFCI protection to a bedroom in an older dwelling where someone (who in the dark recesses of an attic somewhere I have said some not so good things about :D ) has shared an elusive neutral?
 
Re: AFCI woes

When you say that someone has shared a neutral, I assume you are talking about a multiwire branch circuit. If that is the case, there are two pole AFCI circuit breakers that accept a common neutral.
 
Re: AFCI woes

Why are you making this afci protected? If your only adding some outlets why not just protect them alone ? Other than that i would turn all circuits of except this multi circuit then use a hot stick to go hunt it down.Assuming 1/2 of it is the bedroom ,what is the other half ? could you possably join the 2 into one circuit.
 
Re: AFCI woes

If it were only that simple Ryan...but unfortunately I am referring to a neutral from some other circuit that for whatever reason another contractor (it was probably close to 3:30 on Friday afternoon :roll: ) or a DIYer decided to latch onto the circuit i'm working on. I will find the culprit...just eats up time.
 
Re: AFCI woes

Working on it Jim. Adding ceiling outlets in multiple bedrooms and I did think about just running a new circuit, but the panel is full (and I mean full). It will just take time to track it down and then see what my options are...I just needed to vent :cool:
 
Re: AFCI woes

One old trick i found is if something is really driving you up the wall (or in your case attic) it's best to get a good nights sleep and tackle it with fresh attitude.For your sake i hope this is T&M wish you luck.
 
Re: AFCI woes

I carry a telephone tracer on my truck. if the circuits are turnd off you wont hurt the tracer.

open the circuit at either end. put the tracer on the wire in question and a good ground. use the wand to find the wire.

if someone turn on the circuit. you have to buy a new tracer.
 
Re: AFCI woes

Jim...that is just what I am going to do...there has been many a day that a good nights sleep has brought the answer that I couldn't think of the day before.

JB...that is a good idea...never thought of that before...it might make for a quicker synopsis of the problem.
 
Re: AFCI woes

Originally posted by jimwalker:
One old trick i found is if something is really driving you up the wall (or in your case attic) it's best to get a good nights sleep and tackle it with fresh attitude.For your sake i hope this is T&M wish you luck.
Click to expand...
4,000 + Posts and finally a flash of brilliance from old Jim. Can't wait till 8,000. :D
 
Re: AFCI woes

I'd look into seeing if there are multigang boxes housing switches controlling loads on other circuits, that's quick.

Then I'd resort to:
opening the panel,
locating my AFCI circuit,
shut it off,
remove the AFCI load neutral,
wirenut a test lead of my tester to it, testing audible continuity,
touch the other lead to the neutral bar to verify the bootleg neutral,
shut off other circuits,
remove their neutrals one at a time,
testing for the source of the bootleg neutral.

Once you've identified the circuit(s, don't stop when you find one), you can narrow it down further. If you don't find one, you've got a neutral to ground (if available).

Or something like that. :) I've got one I'm avoiding troubleshooting right now myself, they're always a major headache. :D
 
Re: AFCI woes

I have found that when a neutral is lost most service guys just grab a ground and when they leave forget it.Now comes the advent of an afci and as we all know won`t hold.
A pain in the butt but start from the hr and go from there and as said I hope this is t & M a set price on this could kill your bottom line.
 
Re: AFCI woes

The most common cross-neutral connections I see are where someone just has to have an outlet and they start off trying to get it out of a single pole or threeway switch loop.

Eventually, having exhausted several failed hookups using only the switch loop, a neutral is grabbed from the most "convenient" place. Like as not, this is a neutral from an unrelated circuit.
 
Re: AFCI woes

That`s even worse than just grabbing a ground,Now there are two circuits that need the same thing,even more important than a ground.Don`t lose that neutral too especially if on different phases.
 
Re: AFCI woes

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
The most common cross-neutral connections I see are where someone just has to have an outlet and they start off trying to get it out of a single pole or threeway switch loop.
Click to expand...
Drop a wire from the "hot" side of a switch and, I need a neutral.....Hey I can tie the white and bare to the metal box. My outlet works :D

Every old house we see has at least one of those. The telltale sign is the duplex directly below the switch.
How about the switch/receptacle combo in bathrooms! Same situation.
 
Re: AFCI woes

Some of what is lurking in older buildings is scary :eek: Especially the ones that were originally gas lit and retro fitted for lights (electric), then later had receptacles added.
Originally gas lit buildings had 3/8 pipe tp sconces and ceiling fixtures.When retroed to electric they used a pancake box that held bx in 4 holes and were attached with a set screw that tightened on the 3/8 pipe and a 3/8 cap was used.
If you ever come across really old ceiling fixtures that had a really deep canopy most likely it was used on a retro such as this.I`ve seen where in some of these buildings where somebody never disconnected the original gas feed and the pipes were still supplied with gas.There is nothing like being on top of an 8 ft.ladder and when you twist that cap to get at the good part of the bx and you hear that distinct whoosh of natural gas escaping :eek:
 
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