AFCI's (again)

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cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

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Ok, I don't want to turn this into a big debate, but I was asked by my boss to do some research and what better place to start than here.

1. New bedroom addition, old panel (Zinsco, etc). AFCI? Yes or no?
2. Add square footage to existing bedroom. I say no.
3. Bedroom addition with panel upgrade. Yes
4. Bedroom remodel? Depends on extent?

Thanks for your time.
 
My opinion:

1. Yes, which means the job will turn into #3.
2. Yes.
3. Yes (see #1 above).
4. Depends.
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

IMO

1) yes
2) yes
3) yes
4) yes


Reason: 1) Granted it may not do what they claim, but it is safer then not using it.

2) The cost, when looking at the entire job, is small.

Your family is your most important asset, we should treat it as such when designing or constructing.
 
Which edition of the NEC are you on where you are at. If it is 2002 or 2005, then any new 120v 15 or 20 amp outlets put into a bedroom require afci protection at the branch source. No exceptions. No Zinsco exception. No FPE exception. No Murray exception. Merry Christmas:)
 
Mac,

I know what it says, but in this city if a person cries hard enough....you get the picture.

So to enforce it I have to make sure that I'm calling it the same as everyone else. Without counting I couldn't even start to tell you how many different jurisdictions I have in even a 50 mile radius. Nothing worse than the famous "you're the only ones calling that", to make me have to do a weeks worth of research.

I started with you guys, I still have to call at least 5 other jurisdictions to see what they're doing.

And Merry Christmas to you too.
 
In Minnesota, the take is:

Any new 125V, 15 or 20A outlet added to an existing dwelling that is in a bedroom must be from an AFCI circuit.

As for the Zinsco panel issue, leave it alone. . .set a small subpanel that will accept one (or mere) of the currently manufactured AFCI circuit breakers.
 
This brings up an intruiging subject.How can the afci requirement be enforced if a panel like a zinsco(exsisting) doesn`t have an afci available.This creates a double edged sword.The new install has to be afci protected but there is no available afci for the existing panel.
 
Ahhhh, allen is catching on to part of my problem, a huge housing tract with Zinsco panels.

But as some inspectors say, we'll make it right no matter how much it costs.

That's a joke by the way. Just didn't want to start another discussion.

Al, some of the jurisdictions around here are doing the same thing.
 
cowboyjwc said:
But as some inspectors say, we'll make it right no matter how much it costs.
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What?!? You need to resign faster than I can call you a...

That's a joke by the way.
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Oh. :D

From what I've heard of MN, from Jeff and Al, they will have you install a panel inline on the old branch circuit to get AFCI on that new outlet. I think that's excessive, IMO.
 
I see no loopholes in nec.Any added outlets require afci.Says nothing about cost.Now if the town wants to change the code with ammendments then fine.But if your hired to enforce nec then do it.Backing off on this is unfair to the ec that bids it to code.Get them red tags out and use them.
 
al hildenbrand said:
In Minnesota, the take is:

Any new 125V, 15 or 20A outlet added to an existing dwelling that is in a bedroom must be from an AFCI circuit.
Click to expand...

But for the other 49 states we still have a question

Jim W in Tampa said:
I see no loopholes in nec.Any added outlets require afci.Says nothing about cost.Now if the town wants to change the code with ammendments then fine.But if your hired to enforce nec then do it.Backing off on this is unfair to the ec that bids it to code.Get them red tags out and use them.
Click to expand...

I don?t think it?s as clear cut as that. . Since the requirement of 210.12(B) is circuit specific, there is room to dispute an AFCI requirement for an extension of an existing branch circuit.

allenwayne said:
This brings up an intruiging subject.How can the afci requirement be enforced if a panel like a zinsco(exsisting) doesn`t have an afci available.This creates a double edged sword.The new install has to be afci protected but there is no available afci for the existing panel.
Click to expand...

al hildenbrand said:
As for the Zinsco panel issue, leave it alone. . .set a small subpanel that will accept one (or mere) of the currently manufactured AFCI circuit breakers.
Click to expand...

If the main pane l doesn?t have AFCI available or are too expensive to purchase, adding a subpanel is the obvious solution

cowboyjwc said:
Ok, I don't want to turn this into a big debate, but I was asked by my boss to do some research and what better place to start than here.

1. New bedroom addition, old panel (Zinsco, etc). AFCI? Yes or no?
2. Add square footage to existing bedroom. I say no.
3. Bedroom addition with panel upgrade. Yes
4. Bedroom remodel? Depends on extent?

Thanks for your time.
Click to expand...

In our department we have a policy that I believe is the best balance. . None of the proceeding questions would determine the AFCI answer. . I would need to ask 2 questions
Are you running new homeruns for the new outlets ?
If not, does the total area served [combining new and existing rooms served] exceed the capacity of any extended circuits ?

The answer to the second question can be determined by answering other questions.

Does an extension of an existing 20amp circuit cause it to supply power to an area larger than 800 square feet ?
If 2 20amp circuit both serve an area, do they exceed 1600 square feet?
3 circuits, 2400 square feet ?

Does an extension of an existing 15amp circuit cause it to supply power to an area larger than 600 square feet ?
If 2 15amp circuits both serve an area, do they exceed 1200 square feet?

David
 
dnem said:
In our department we have a policy that I believe is the best balance. .
Are you running new homeruns for the new outlets ?
Click to expand...
So, in a nutshell, a new outlet installed in an existing bedroom of constant floor area is installed under 210.12(B) only if a new homerun is included.

So, the department says that the "new outlet" is an "existing outlet" because it is added to an existing homerun.

Interesting spin.
 
I still go back to my original post in this thread.If there isn`t an afci available for an old panel how can an inspector require you to provide afci protection???
 
allenwayne said:
I still go back to my original post in this thread.If there isn`t an afci available for an old panel how can an inspector require you to provide afci protection???
Click to expand...

Which links in well with our policy. . If it's a new HR then it gets landed in a [new] subpanel that has AFCI capabilty, existing HRs stay on the same breaker.
 
macmikeman said:
210.12 (B). Look at the wording. "Outlets installed" . Not "new homeruns installed". Another typical local misinturpretation of plain English.
Click to expand...

Let's see how far you want to take this "plain English" concept.

2005NEC page31 definition Structure. That which is built or constructed.

250.32(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accordance with 250.50.

Do you advocate the requirement of a ground rod at a pool equipment pedestal that supplies more than the 2 circuits allowed by the exception to 250.32(A) ?

Would it be considered ?plain English? for all free standing exterior generators to need ground rods ?

I don?t see anything plain about the English that the code panels have chosen to write some of the things in the code.

David
 
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