AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

[hurk27]

This is just something that I thought of when reading in another topic on existing bedroom circuits.

Would it be code complaint if a sub-panel was installed in the location of the bedrooms to allow for an easier way of protecting the room's with AFCI breakers.

The wording says "listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit" But can this be interpreted to include the feeder's to the sub-panel?
If not it would be a short cut in some installations that could work.

I think this would be going around the code a little by placing the whole branch circuit in the bedrooms and only having the feeders from the main panel but It is a good question.

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

A feeder/panel isn't an "outlet".

I frequently put subs in BR and kitchen areas because its a strategic location that makes the rest of the job go dramatically easier and keeps trip resolution closer to the point of the fault. Less voltage drop, less hole drilling, less stapling, etc. Materiel cost are a tad higher, but time/hassle factors decline considerably in return and future flexibility is increased.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

Very few GC will care for the looks of a panel in a bedroom.Find it hard to believe there would be any savings in time or cost.Could just pull 3 or 4 home runs at same time.

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

There are cosmetic panel covers that can be painted or wallpapered over. Until you do it this way, its hard to comprehend how much time is usually wasted stapling, drilling, and dragging ladders back and forth through a basement. From my POV, if it saves an hour of jerking around it paid for itself.

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

Hurk
You can locate the panel in the bedroom. 210.12(B) requires the entire branch circuit to be protected, not the panel or the feeders.

Pierre

 

[hurk27]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

Thanks everyone. I was just feeling the waters on this one as I wonder why the intent of the code was to protect the whole branch circuit if there are ways to circumvent the intent. I agree the code does not require feeder to be protected, even if they were installed in the bedroom but it makes me wonder as to why the code wanted the whole circuit protected when a AFCI receptacle would do the same job if it is located just outside the bedroom. and would drop the cost of the circuit. Is this a little play with manufactures to make us use breakers only? (Blocking they way GFCI's turned out) I agree with the code. It just seems somtimes there is some codes that favor a manufactured way of doing somthing when there is other ways to achive the same objective.

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

Hurk
Because of the nature of AFCIs, they had to start somewhere, and statistics showed the bedroom to be the place. I believe over the next few code cycles you will see changes in the requirements of the AFCI.

Pierre

 

[hurk27]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

pierre
I'm not saying the idea is a bad one. It's the way it was brought in to code. Basically the requirement only allows for breakers to be used. And it was a breaker manufacture that pushed for this requirement. since there is no requirement for wires outside of a bedroom to be protected elsewhere. and even feeders that might supply only bedrooms. then why a requirement that would only benefit breaker manufactures, and not receptacle manufactures that have just as much experience with complicated devices as breaker manufactures do. To me it looks like they shut the door on what happened to GFCI's as it started out with breakers but migrated to receptacle's too (which sell more units now than the breakers I might add). I would like anyone to show how a receptacle version would not be any less safe than the breaker version. and I know that a wiring problem can start in the wiring to the panel but these are home runs without splice continuously from the bedroom circuit to the panel so this home run would have to be safer that the runs within the bedroom that have a splice at every device. so why a AFCI receptacle located outside the bedroom area would not be as safe? Does it not sound like a little monopolizing?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: AFCI's in sub-panel for bedrooms

Up till now i didn't really read this right,it does indeed stop the idea of using afci recepticle if they existed.
So why didn't recepticle mfg. create one and get the code fixed to use them.Or did they feel that the home run is just as subject to this protection being needed.
My understanding from inspectors is that bedrooms are just the start of afci protection and we will be seeing them in all lighting circuits in a few years.