AFCI's on all 15--20 SP in 2008 NEC

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AS rumors have it the new '08 NEC will require all 15-20a SP circuits to be AFCI protected.

My thought is... won't this create another problem of overcrowding in the breaker panels.

You would think breaker panels will need to be re-enginered, with possiblely new breakers.

I have a design that I'm working on that would allow the breakers to plug into, not only the Hot Buss but also the neutral bar at the same time. This way the hot and neutrals from the circuit conductors can both terminate only once on the individual breaker.

Remember the guy that invented the intermittent wipers for cars. 25 years after they were installed in autos he finally won a Billion dollar law suit with future royalties.
This could be me if I live another 25 years!
 
77401 said:
AS rumors have it the new '08 NEC will require all 15-20a SP circuits to be AFCI protected.
At the rate the NEC is adopted here (Va), that'll probably affect us in 2015.

My thought is... won't this create another problem of overcrowding in the breaker panels.
It shouldn't, unless you're relying on tandems. You'd use the same quantity of breaker spaces and neutral-bus holes.

You would think breaker panels will need to be re-enginered, with possiblely new breakers.
How would a panel-full be any different than one?

I have a design that I'm working on that would allow the breakers to plug into, not only the Hot Buss but also the neutral bar at the same time. This way the hot and neutrals from the circuit conductors can both terminate only once on the individual breaker.
Maybe, but I can imagine new problems with twice as many stab connections.

Remember the guy that invented the intermittent wipers for cars. 25 years after they were installed in autos he finally won a Billion dollar law suit with future royalties.
This could be me if I live another 25 years!
I don't mean to say don't try. Go for it!
 
If it did go through, I'd say that is an incredibly good idea, and that 77401 should delete this thread or I'll steal it. :)

Imagine all those pigtails, Larry. An AFCI or three ain't bad, but 40 of them would be real labor intensive, and pack the panel full of neutrals. ;)
 
Didn't SQ D have a panelboard years ago that did just that? It was called the Trilliant system and it had snap in slots for all the bus connection, and the GFCI CB's connected directly to the neutral bus. I don't think that anyone used them as I have never seen one installed.


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Trevor,

I was at my supply house last week and some guy walked in looking for a relacement Sq D Trilliant breaker.

He had no luck, as they don't carry Sq D except for a few qo and homeline common brreakers.

I know that I've seen a few of those installed years ago, but I don't remember where. I'm thinking State College, PA.
 
I would think the change that is going to drop the 42 overcurrent device limitation will create more of any overcrowding than the afci expansion will.
 
Bryan, if the limit of 42 devices is eliminated (hopefully the proposals to do so make it through) the panel enclosures would be increased in size proportionately to the number of OCPD's that the panel board would be listed for.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post.

Roger
 
How can they accept a proposal to require all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt dwelling unit outlets to be AFCI protected when there is not an AFCI on the market that will do what was promised in the original porposals for the 1996 code? Also there are no combination type AFCIs on the market at this time and they are requied to be used starting 1/1/08.
Don
 
Bryan, if the limit of 42 devices is eliminated (hopefully the proposals to do so make it through) the panel enclosures would be increased in size proportionately to the number of OCPD's that the panel board would be listed for.

Not necessarily. I spoke with Square D (Jim Pauley) whom is against the proposal and they felt UL and the other NRTL would not necessarily prohibit a typical 40 space panel used today from having 60+ devices installed. He made this exact statement in the presence of Mark Ode from UL. Mark did not deny the product standard used for panelboards and similar equipment would not automatically be changed or updated to reflect the ENC change.

I think the issue is too young to make assumptions at this time. (By the way, it is Cutler Hammer whom is pushing the change.)
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
How can they accept a proposal to require all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt dwelling unit outlets to be AFCI protected when there is not an AFCI on the market that will do what was promised in the original porposals for the 1996 code? Also there are no combination type AFCIs on the market at this time and they are requied to be used starting 1/1/08.
Don

Simple ,just put some of the same green stuff in there hands.They will be making millions in breaker sales.Good investment i would say.
 
1. I thought I read in an installation instruction that you should avoid installing AFCI breakers in adjacent locations in the panel because they have active circuitry that generates some heat. How are you going to avoid that if EVERY circuit in a house must be on an AFCI?

2. Where will I be able to use my power tools? Several of them trip AFCI breakers. (I'm guessing it's the brush arc.) My miter saw in particular is a pain. I'm doing a bunch of new molding and trim upstairs right now and the only place I can plug it in is by running an extension cord to the master bath. Everything else upstairs is on AFCIs. Since the saw has no problems with the GFCI, I blame the AFCI breakers.
 
LarryFine said:
At the rate the NEC is adopted here (Va), that'll probably affect us in 2015.

I hear ya Larry......you will be happy to know however that VA is starting it's CE program in 2008 for all trades.

Will require Cont. Ed starting in 2008 and then it looks like at the same time they will probably adopt the 2005 NEC as well.
 
Didn't Virginia recently adopt the 2002 NEC? Last fall?

Can you tell me why there are so many (building) inspectors in Virginia who are hell-bent on having smoke detectors installed in unfinished attics? They turn a deaf ear to 110.3 and the manufacturer's instructions, etc.
 
kbsparky,

Yep the sure did.... but in my long talks with them ( because I am doing seminars around the state on NEC Changes ) they are mandating the CE requirement starting in 2008....and will more than likely update to 2005 NEC at that time....VA is about 3-4 years behind when adopting codes.

AS for the smokes in attics.....I can't say I have run into that KB...in my area no one has pushed for that or demand it.

I tend to think in many cases it is " personal will" that envokes it....but again I have not run into it at all.

I just happen to put my smokes on it's own AFCI circuit...with nothing but the smokes and end the circuit at the light in the attic....JUST in case....
 
kbsparky said:
Didn't Virginia recently adopt the 2002 NEC? Last fall?

Can you tell me why there are so many (building) inspectors in Virginia who are hell-bent on having smoke detectors installed in unfinished attics? They turn a deaf ear to 110.3 and the manufacturer's instructions, etc.

Quite possibly because they are doing their job and enforcng the Uniform Statewide Building Code:
R317.1 Single-and multiple-station smoke alarms. Single-and multiple-station smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:
  • In each sleeping room.
  • Outside of each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms.
  • On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and cellars but not including crawl spaces and uninhabitable attics. In dwellings or dwelling units with split levels and without an intervening door between the adjacent levels, a smoke alarm installed on the upper level shall suffice for the adjacent lower level provided that the lower level is less than one full story below the upper level.
When more than one smoke alarm is required to be installed within and individual dwelling unit the alarm devices shall be interconnected in such a manner that the actuation of one alarm will activate all of the alarms in the individual unit. The alarm shall be clearly audible in all bedrooms over background noise levels with all intervening doors closed.

All smoke alarms shall be listed and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code and the household fire warning provisions of NFPA 72.

R317.1.1 Alterations, repairs and additions. When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be provided with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings;the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired.

Exceptions:
  • Smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required to interconnected and hard wired where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space, or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring and interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.
  • Repairs to the exterior surfaces of dwellings are exempt from the requirement of the section.

When my daughter got the permits for renovations on her house the requirement to upgrade the smokes was stamped in red on both the building and electrical permits. Clearly they want it done.

Your real question was specific to the attic. In my daughter's case, she added a set of fold-up stairs, which seems to remove some wiggle-room over how inhabitable it may be. For any given house, I guess it comes down to the definition of uninhabitable versus unfinished.

As an interesting aside, I met with the inspector for the electrical inspection (the electrician is presently in jail, which is another whole story by itself.) He asked if the bedrooms were on AFCI protected circuits, and I replied affirmatively. Then he pointed at the smoke in the bedroom and asked if it was. I said that since it, and the others bedroom smokes, were bedroom outlets, and since all the smokes were interconnected, that every smoke in the house was on an AFCI protected circuit. He hemmed and hawed a bit and then said that he and the other inspectors didn't agree that smoke detectors should be on an AFCI circuit and encouraged us to feel free to change the breaker.

I happen to agree, but I really didn't like that answer very much. At this point, everything is inspected. I can't imagine a licensed electrician will come behind the inspection and change something to intentionally violate the code. If I change it I would be putting my daughter at risk, since we would be knowingly violating the law - so any future problem even after she sells the house could come back to her. We aren't going to change it ourselves, or ask an electrician to break the law. But I am interested in hearing other opinions on the inspector's comment.
 
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