AFCO or GFCI tester valid?

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Ponchik

Ponchik

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If the only proper way to test a GFCI or an AFCI device is to push the button, then the little testers with the 3 lights and a push button are not valid testers. Correct?


Thanks
 
edward said:
If the only proper way to test a GFCI or an AFCI device is to push the button, then the little testers with the 3 lights and a push button are not valid testers. Correct?


Thanks
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I don't know about AFCI's.

GFCI's, yes the test button on the device is the only recognized method according to manufacturers instructions. But any load of more than 6mA that does not follow correct current path should still trip it, after all that is what the device is supposed to do, and if it does not trip then there is a problem with the device.

All the test button really does on the device is place a (presumably 6 mA) load across one line side and opposing load side terminal, creating an imbalanced current of required trip level magnitude to pass through the devices current sensor. It will work whether or not there is a functioning equipment grounding conductor at the device or even downstream. A plug in tester can only create a simulated fault to the equipment grounding conductor, and if there is no EGC, then current will not flow and device will not trip. Does not mean device doesn't work, may just mean no fault current was ever present to a trip level threshold.
 
I looked in the UL book 2012 but could not find the listed way of testing GFCI. I know it is listed with the instructions, but it just states "push the test button for testing" It doesn't mention that is the listed/only way of testing.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I believe it is the same for afci
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The test button on the device being the only test method recognized by the instructions is all that is the same. The way the test is performed is not the same.

Testing a GFCI with a simulated fault condition is easy to do and understand, even if it is not the recommended method, you will get consistent results.

The conditions that an AFCI are looking for are much more complex. Pressing the test button on the device likely doesn't even perform a simulation of a fault condition like the test button on the GFCI does.
 
edward said:
I looked in the UL book 2012 but could not find the listed way of testing GFCI. I know it is listed with the instructions, but it just states "push the test button for testing" It doesn't mention that is the listed/only way of testing.
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Think of it this way. Pressing the test button on the device may be a manufacturer recommended test. But actual fault conditions that the device is designed to react to also should trip it. Those plug in testers do exactly that - they introduce real fault conditions and the GFCI responds to them if it works. It is not a simulated fault condition, there is current flowing outside the intended path when you press the test button on those plug in testers.

It is not the only possible fault current condition that will trip the device, but understanding how the device works you can say it is very effective method of testing and is reasonably reliable.
 
kwired said:
The test button on the device being the only test method recognized by the instructions is all that is the same. The way the test is performed is not the same.

Testing a GFCI with a simulated fault condition is easy to do and understand, even if it is not the recommended method, you will get consistent results.

The conditions that an AFCI are looking for are much more complex. Pressing the test button on the device likely doesn't even perform a simulation of a fault condition like the test button on the GFCI does.
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I was talking about the test button not how it functions :D
 
You have been misinformed, or confused. Nothing to be ashamed of, as certain parties (Square D comes to mind) go out of their way to baffle you with BS.

First off, AFCI's are AFCI's, GFCI's are GFCI's, and never the twain shall meet.

We all know how a GFCI operates, and the plug-in testers are a perfectly valid way of testing them. That's why UL calls them 'testers.' If theGFCI fails to trip with the tester, there is a reason - and it's either in the household wiring or the GFCI.

AFCI's are a horse of a different color. We have since learned that there is NO actual arc test performed by UL, and that the AFCI manufacturers use 'proprietary' electronics to make the 'test' button operate. While the "afci" patents themselves are in the public domain, there's no 'standard' waveform that they're supposed to detect.

This means, as Square D loves to point out, that no after-market tester can claim to test AFCI's the same way as the manufacturer's test button. Thus, UL calls the after-market testers 'indicators,' rather than testers. As you might guess, Square D has no interest in either licensing their waveform to third parties, or there being a 'standard' for everyone to follow.

IMO, the 'tester' issue is the key to unlocking the entire AFCI fraud .... but that's another thread.
 
kwired said:
a (presumably 6 mA) load
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The one I saw had an internal 15.87K resistor for the test load and so you get 7.6 mA and so it should trip in less than 4 seconds according to UL 943.

With the AFCIs, the one made by Siemens needs at least 5A flowing before it even looks for an arc.
 
renosteinke said:
We all know how a GFCI operates, and the plug-in testers are a perfectly valid way of testing them. That's why UL calls them 'testers.' If theGFCI fails to trip with the tester, there is a reason - and it's either in the household wiring or the GFCI.
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And if there is no EGC present at the receptacle, they won't trip, cause they shunt some current to the EGC to perform the test. If you plug into a receptacle with one of those and it shows no EGC - I suggest not pressing test button, especially in circumstance where maybe you have a metal weatherproof cover and you are in contact with it. The the test current may very well find its way through you - and it will wake you up.

Dennis Alwon said:
Well yeah but most manufacturers have gfci built into their afci. GE is the only brand that I know about that does not have gfci built in.
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It it not 4-6 mA class A GFCI. A plug in GFCI tester will not trip it either.

masterinbama said:
I test downstream devices with my Wiggy.
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Any low impedance volt meter should draw enough. Comes in real handy for testing anything GFCI protected that is not 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles.
 
I googled the "indicator" in my previous post and found this by Tom Baker: A tester was introduced by Etcon AF120 claming to be an ?AFCI Tester? it actually (if you read the fine print and knew how an AFCI worked) only tested the GFP portion of the AFCI. And this product was subject to a recall by UL, as it was illegally labeled ?UL Listed? http://www.ul.com/media/newsrel/nr092402.html
 
edward said:
If the only proper way to test a GFCI or an AFCI device is to push the button, then the little testers with the 3 lights and a push button are not valid testers. Correct?


Thanks
Click to expand...

Correct, as UL has stated these devices are only to provide an "indication" if the receptacle or circuit is protected by an AFCI/GFCI they are not UL listed as a tester, UL only reconizes the test button on the breaker or device (GFCI receptacle) as the only listed method for testing the funtion of the AFCI/GFCI.

Here is the PDF on UL responce for AFCI's, I havent found the one for GFCI's, but I have read it.

AFCI indicators
Recently, there have been a number of questions from the field about the response of arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) circuit breakers to commercially available AFCI indicators. AFCI indicators operate by producing a waveform similar to an arc fault. However, because they cannot produce an actual arc fault, an AFCI indicator may not trip every available AFCI.
Therefore, if an AFCI indicator plugged into a receptacle protected by an AFCI does not trip the AFCI, it does not mean that the AFCI protecting the circuit is defective and needs to be replaced. When this situation occurs, you should push the "Test" button provided as an integral part of the AFCI itself. If the integral test button does not trip the AFCI circuit breaker, it should be replaced.
To notify users of this product limitation, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. requires AFCI indicators to be marked or be provided with instruction manuals that state the following or equivalent:
CAUTION: AFCIs recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI indicators produce characteristics that mimic some forms of arcing. Because of this the indicator may give a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly. If this occurs, recheck the operation of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. The AFCI button test function will demonstrate proper operation.
For more information on AFCI indicators, contact Steve Brown in Melville, N.Y., by phone at +1-631-271-6200, ext. 22420; or by e-mail at Steven.A.Brown@us.ul.com. If you find a defective AFCI, please alert the product's manufacturer and UL through UL's AHJ Product Report Form available online at https://www.ul.com/regulators/ahjprod.cfm.
For more information on AFCI?s, see the AFCI section of the Regulators Page on
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UL about Indicators
 
hurk27 said:
Correct, as UL has stated these devices are only to provide an "indication" if the receptacle or circuit is protected by an AFCI/GFCI they are not UL listed as a tester, UL only reconizes the test button on the breaker or device (GFCI receptacle) as the only listed method for testing the funtion of the AFCI/GFCI.

Here is the PDF on UL responce for AFCI's, I havent found the one for GFCI's, but I have read it.




UL about Indicators
Click to expand...

My biggest problem with that is if the "indicator" introduces a condition that the AFCI should see as a fault condition, I would expect it to trip, whether the testing method is listed or not. Is the device only supposed to react to "listed faults" Shame on us for not making "listed" mistakes in our installations. Isn't some of the installers mistakes what they brag these AFCI's will protect us from?

With a GFCI "indicator" you are introducing what the GFCI device will see as a true fault condition. If it doesn't respond I am going to attempt a little further testing, just to make sure my "indicator" didn't fail to do its job. I could even connect some other actual load from hot to equipment grounding conductor, not a listed method of testing, but is still a true fault condition that the device should respond to and I expect it to respond otherwise something is wrong with it.

How about testing a "standard" breaker. Sure there are complex UL standards to get a "listed testing" done.

But If I put a 40 amp load on a 20 amp breaker, I would certainly hope it trips at some point, otherwise how can I expect it to protect me if I unknowingly end up with 40 amps of load on same breaker?


When it comes to the AFCI, how do we know just what it tests? I'm sure there are some out there that know more about these devices than many of us that install them, but for all we know they may just be operating a simple shunt trip type of device when you press the test button. They claim these devices recognize waveform characteristics associated with arcing conditions. Does pressing the test button introduce any of these conditions? If not how do we really know it will respond when called upon? GFCI test button actually does imbalance the current through the sensing coil, creating an actual condition that the device is designed to detect.
 
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