Afternoon thunderstorms Issues

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jahilliard

Senior Member
I have a customer that believes he is having issues with his incoming power during lightning storms. These storms happen almost daily here and it’s becoming quite expensive for him and the power company will not take any responsibility, right or wrong. The question I have is does anyone have experience with what’s being explained and can anyone recommend a possibly solution?! His email was as follows...

Here are the issues I have when thunderstorms occur at/near my facility:

First let me say that I am in a building with 6 suites. I have the middle 2, 2 other units have no machinery that I know of and the other 2 units may have smaller electrical uses as well. I had to have FPL come out in like 2010 to turn my facility into 3 phase (from 2 phase obviously) upon the build out. And at that time I was using a different electrician to run the wiring from my breaker boxes to all my machines. They used I think 7 machines of mine are 3 phase (out of 14 total pieces of equipment). Over the last 8 years, (only on my washers…not the dryers nor the press) I have had many many instances of some sort of power surge during thunderstorms that have fried my inverters…on a few washers. This is about $2000 per unit to replace. Roughly the first or second time it happened, it just so happens that they fried up at the same time a local transformer blew fairly close by. So I filed a claim with FPL. They reviewed it, investigated themselves and found themselves NOT at fault. Which needless to say, pissed me off to no end. So I have not bothered with those jerks anymore since they aren’t taking any responsibility.

So this happened again this week where 3 washer inverters blew out (of course during a thunderstorm on Monday) and I have to now do something in regards to some sort of surge protection with you….whatever the hell that may entail. I can’t keep spending thousands every time this occurs. The strange thing is that this only occurs on my washers and not my 2 (3 phase) dryers, nor my 3 phase press. What’s that all about?

So I did ask the folks with the unit next to mine if they’ve ever had any damage from the surges and they said no…not yet. But this past Monday apparently the power went out and back on like 5 times in a row.
 
Others on here would know how to approach this better- but I would setup up a 1 week power quality monitor at the service looking for voltage spikes, swells, ect. Id also double and triple check the grounding and bonding- make sure its to code and make sure telecommunications, ect is properly bonded.

One possible culprit could be a loose neutral thats showing up when the wind blows.
 
I would do as Mbrooke suggested first.

Should you decide to go with the surge protection route I have used this company's products over the past 3 years and have not had an issue.

https://www.cpesupply.com/2330106/P...ource=bing&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=SYCTC4803Y

You can buy direct from the company or buy them on-line at various outlets. If you call in a company (i.e.Eaton) to come in they will probably suggest a "cascaded" approach to your situation where you start with a whole panel surge protector and then individual surge protectors at your respective pieces of equipment.

Surge protectors are like shock absorbers in your car. If you don't have them - you'll feel every bump.:thumbsup:
 
Spikes in voltage I can see being an obvious problem but what about dips in voltage momentarily. Let’s say if the voltage dipped by 20% or more, how would that affect the inverters.
 
jahilliard said:
Spikes in voltage I can see being an obvious problem but what about dips in voltage momentarily. Let’s say if the voltage dipped by 20% or more, how would that affect the inverters.
Click to expand...
When not loaded they may ride through, when loaded DC bus voltage will drop, if it has protective circuitry may very well go into a fault triggered by low bus voltage. This pretty typical for VFD's anyway, not sure if that is what you are calling an inverter or if you have something else. If it is happening too frequently you may need UPS/power conditioner to help ride through such voltage sags. Same unit likely also provides high voltage transient protection to some extent.
 
jahilliard said:
Spikes in voltage I can see being an obvious problem but what about dips in voltage momentarily. Let’s say if the voltage dipped by 20% or more, how would that affect the inverters.
Click to expand...

Voltage down means current up to maintain VA. Depends on how the inverters protect themselves.
 
yep, ask poco to install recording meters so it can be analyzed after the issue happens.

My own poco has power issues, and I caught it using my own data logging (DSP) unit. They then installed recording meters and they confirmed my data, that prompted them to install cap bank nearby to help squash ring wave issue when nearby cement plant cranks on all their motors.

Another option is to get a cheap UPS unit that had recording software of operational issue (need laptop). No need to plug anything into the UPS (or plug in laptop, etc), it's just there to record events when you may not be there. My own UPS was recently kicking into action, which prompted me to check line voltage (split 240 service), was down to 113v rms on each end of xfrmer. Poco then found faulty voltage regulation devices, of which they said was being caused by back feeding from all of the solar panels residents have near me.

And yep, small dips and spikes can/may hurt electronics. My electronic coffee pot ckt board fried during one ring wave spike I had.

Anyways, some ez ways to find the issue, likely a poco issue.
 
jahilliard said:
I had to have FPL come out in like 2010 to turn my facility into 3 phase (from 2 phase obviously) upon the build out. ~ They used I think 7 machines of mine are 3 phase (out of 14 total pieces of equipment). Over the last 8 years, (only on my washers…not the dryers nor the press) I have had many many instances of some sort of power surge during thunderstorms that have fried my inverters…on a few washers.

So this happened again this week where 3 washer inverters blew out (of course during a thunderstorm on Monday) and I have to now do something in regards to some sort of surge protection with you…whatever the hell that may entail. I can’t keep spending thousands every time this occurs. The strange thing is that this only occurs on my washers and not my 2 (3 phase) dryers, nor my 3 phase press. What’s that all about?

So I did ask the folks with the unit next to mine if they’ve ever had any damage from the surges and they said no…not yet. But this past Monday apparently the power went out and back on like 5 times in a row.
Click to expand...

Couple of suggestions.
I suggest checking the specifications on the drives inside the washer and the washer manual. Most drives are made for a Wye supply system. The surge suppression inside the drive is typically made in a wye arrangement out of MOV's (metal oxide varisistors). Most makers do not approve of a center tapped delta or a corner grounded delta supply source. The MOV's don't tolerate a non symmetrical supply system. Most standard VFD manuals will say this in the fine print.

Since it sounds like the one condominium unit was upgraded from 1Φ to 3Φ to accommodate the 3Φ equipment, the utility may have added one more transformer pot on the pole and supplied the unit with 240/120 center tapped open delta. Center tapped delta has a wild leg and is generally not approved for most drives.

jahilliard said:
Spikes in voltage I can see being an obvious problem but what about dips in voltage momentarily. Let’s say if the voltage dipped by 20% or more, how would that affect the inverters.
Click to expand...

Repeated application of power to a drive can burn up a drive. Jaref can give a better explanation, but the capacitor bank in the drive has a pre charge circuit to limit the capacitor current inrush upon energizing. This circuit only works the first time the power is applied, once the drive is warmed up, the pre charge circuit is bypassed. When repeatedly energized while warm, the surge currents can damage the front end of the drive, while the pre charge circuit is bypassed.

With the other equipment not affected, suggest that they are electro-mechanical controls and are not affected by charging circuits or a center tapped delta supply. Neither are the neighbors with the 1Φ supply. I would check the service type and the equipment manuals before trying other solutions. And as other suggested previously, checking the service bonding and grounding connections are properly implemented.
 
goldstar said:
I would do as Mbrooke suggested first.

Should you decide to go with the surge protection route I have used this company's products over the past 3 years and have not had an issue.

https://www.cpesupply.com/2330106/P...ource=bing&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=SYCTC4803Y

You can buy direct from the company or buy them on-line at various outlets. If you call in a company (i.e.Eaton) to come in they will probably suggest a "cascaded" approach to your situation where you start with a whole panel surge protector and then individual surge protectors at your respective pieces of equipment.

Surge protectors are like shock absorbers in your car. If you don't have them - you'll feel every bump.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Do you buy them from cpesupply or did they just happen to come up on google search?
 
Surge suppression is a good place to start.
Mike Holt once said
1. You get what you pay for
2. More is better

Install a quality SPD at the service entrance, then feeder panels and then point of use. Use the impedance of the building wiring to reduce the surge. Grounding at the service is probably not important as that SPD should have line to neutral protection, the main bonding jumper will send the surge back to the utility..
But a loose neutral would be an problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top