Almost

[mbrooke]

I think people are finally waking up, but still the myth of grounding electrodes clearing breakers persists:


https://youtu.be/LoQVdEQlmXM?t=380


Ground rods are NOT a backup EGCs, service neutral, or effective ground fault current path, and have nothing to do with fault clearing even if the service neutral is lost. Yes metal water mains might, but that is not the intent of the NEC or the intent of grounding electrodes.

 

[mopowr steve]

3 years ago during a ECM conference with Mike Holt he asked if he should keep going over grounding and bonding or concentrate on something else, the majority of us sitting in suggested he stay on grounding and bonding. I think we felt the same as you, the more people that can get on board with what he is saying maybe eventually more will get to the greater understanding. Although it’s a tough teaching for the lay person.

 

[infinity]

Most electricians simply don't get this. They think that if you don't have a GEC connected to an electrode that the system is ungrounded.

 

[mbrooke]

3 years ago during a ECM conference with Mike Holt he asked if he should keep going over grounding and bonding or concentrate on something else, the majority of us sitting in suggested he stay on grounding and bonding. I think we felt the same as you, the more people that can get on board with what he is saying maybe eventually more will get to the greater understanding. Although it’s a tough teaching for the lay person.

I agree, I think he needs to push this harder. I see people including the service neutral as part of the fault path, but still allude to ground rods opening breakers. And I don't blame them, look at the 1968 and 1971 NECs. 1968 basically says the EGC is to connect metal frames to the ground rod, and the 1971 evolves to say both the service neutral and ground rod OR either of the two. There is no or. You do not pick which one an EGC connects to.

 

[mbrooke]

1971, notice and/or

 

[mbrooke]

Most electricians simply don't get this. They think that if you don't have a GEC connected to an electrode that the system is ungrounded.

Because their entire lives they've been exposed to the wrong terminology and wrong information.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I truly believe the NFPA if not the global electrical community at one point believed the earth had sock reduction properties.

And I could see the origins, a 25 ohm ground rod will stop a 1000 ohm fault from shocking someone.

 

[mbrooke]

Nice! He is now shadow deleting my replies that say otherwise. Here is an example of when I log-in and when I log-out; I took the log-in ones 2 minutes latter to show that its not on my side.

This is how ignorance spreads in humanity, when people put ego over accepting new information.

 

[mbrooke]

Logged in:

 

[GoldDigger]

I do not see how the above post are relevant here. Am I missing something?

 

[winnie]

Look, the guy has the basic concept of current seeking a path to the source correct. Getting into a fight with him in his 'space' (the comments on his video) will simply get him defensive and make him dig in harder. Somehow you need to pull him aside, get him focused on what he's done _correctly_ and then get him to improve his game.

Grounding electrodes _do_ provide a path back to the source. It simply is not low impedance enough to trip a breaker in overcurrent. If it were a GFCI breaker, then the grounding would trip the breaker. Maybe get him try the ground rod on a 15A breaker trick for collecting worms.

-Jon

 

[romex jockey]

'Earthing' is a term used across the pond that would be good for the NEC to adopt

jmho

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

1

 

[mbrooke]

I do not see how the above post are relevant here. Am I missing something?

Code does not mandate 25 ohms, just that a ground rod be augmented with a second one of the first one is over 25 ohms. Meaning the code knows its impossible to control the resistance of a ground rod.

 

[mbrooke]

'Earthing' is a term used across the pond that would be good for the NEC to adopt

jmho

~RJ~

In some ways, but remember the NEC forbids TT systems. An EGC for us will never be an earthing conductor.

 

[mbrooke]

Look, the guy has the basic concept of current seeking a path to the source correct. Getting into a fight with him in his 'space' (the comments on his video) will simply get him defensive and make him dig in harder. Somehow you need to pull him aside, get him focused on what he's done _correctly_ and then get him to improve his game.

Grounding electrodes _do_ provide a path back to the source. It simply is not low impedance enough to trip a breaker in overcurrent. If it were a GFCI breaker, then the grounding would trip the breaker. Maybe get him try the ground rod on a 15A breaker trick for collecting worms.

-Jon

Thats what I stated, that a ground rod will not clear a breaker. His replies reference less then 5 ohms being a requirement, which is not applicable to residential installations. I don't want DIYs or trades men thinking that a ground rod with a low enough measured impedance at the time of installation qualifies as a low impedance path.

 

[winnie]

Thats what I stated, that a ground rod will not clear a breaker. His replies reference less then 5 ohms being a requirement, which is not applicable to residential installations. I don't want DIYs or trades men thinking that a ground rod with a low enough measured impedance at the time of installation qualifies as a low impedance path.

Absolutely correct. And even a 5 ohm grounding electrode (which is _not_ required) would not clear a 120V fault very quickly if at all. 24A is in the allowed 'never trip' range for a 20A breaker....

-Jon

 

[mbrooke]

Absolutely correct. And even a 5 ohm grounding electrode (which is _not_ required) would not clear a 120V fault very quickly if at all. 24A is in the allowed 'never trip' range for a 20A breaker....

-Jon

Yup, all true.

 

[PaulMmn]

In addition to the discussion of grounding electrical circuits, consider the early telegraph circuits. One wire from station A to station B, power at both ends was grounded to 'complete the circuit...'

https://www.telegraphlore.com/technology/basic_circuit.html

 

[ActionDave]

Most electricians simply don't get this. They think that if you don't have a GEC connected to an electrode that the system is ungrounded.

I don't think it's fair to just blame electricians, although I have no patience for the ones that don't put in the effort to understand it.

You are up against the Dirt Worshippers and they are not easy to beat back.

There's a bunch of money being spent on kooky earthing schemes that are being put on plans that people are charging huge amounts of money for. The result is any electrician or engineer that tries and point out what a bunch of crap it all is looses credibility.
​​​​​​

 

[romex jockey]

I don't think it's fair to just blame electricians, although I have no patience for the ones that don't put in the effort to understand it.

You are up against the Dirt Worshippers and they are not easy to beat back.

There's a bunch of money being spent on kooky earthing schemes that are being put on plans that people are charging huge amounts of money for. The result is any electrician or engineer that tries and point out what a bunch of crap it all is looses credibility.
​​​​​​

Yet Tesla ,had he had his way, would have charged the stratosphere, to reciprocate with earth as a 'return loop' .

It would have been interesting existing as a 'bird on a wire'. albeit delicate frequencies may not have coexisted so well with it

~RJ~