Aluminum wiring and homeowners insurance

[James L]

I had a call last week, a guy told me he is buying a house, but he's having an impossible time finding homeowners insurance because of aluminum wiring and the associated connections.

He said he found an insurance willing to write a policy, so long as he had all the devices were either aluminum rated, or pigtail the wiring to copper using AlumiConn connectors. He said he had a bid of $1,500.00 for devices, but the guy couldn't get it done before closing.

So I went to look at the job and wrote an estimate. My price was double what the other guy came up with, but my price was for much more than just devices.

I included a price to remove all the light fixtures and make proper aluminum to copper connections there also. And I looked in the panel (live work ) to find multiple instances of double-tapped lugs, some sharing aluminum and copper. Other issues, too - burnt lug, main feed not in lug, etc

He didn't like me writing up more work than the insurance company wanted to have done, but I told him that aluminum wire doesn't magically change to copper on its way from a switch to a light.

So the reason for this post is a question and encouragement.

1) question - what would you do in this situation? Would you write up a bid to only change the devices, or would you also include light fixtures and work in the panel or elsewhere?

2) encouragement - don't feel like you have to give in to a potential customer who wants a "bare minimum" approach. I didn't get this job, and really didn't expect to.

 

[infinity]

I would fix all of the problems or none at all.

 

[kwired]

I would tell them I will be replacing with copper conductors or no work at all. Don't care if you use alumicons or not, your name is associated with it if you take on some or all of it.

I would also inform them like you did that that aluminum don't magically turn into copper between a switch and a light, or anything else they thought didn't need any attention.

Of course my option likely means you are installing AFCI's and maybe even changing to a panelboard that actually has AFCI's listed for it.

 

[James L]

I would tell them I will be replacing with copper conductors or no work at all. Don't care if you use alumicons or not....

That's an interesting take. Can you elaborate on the reasoning? I'm all ears

I've never been overly concerned with aluminum wiring. From my experience, it's a matter of terminating it properly - which was rare back in its heyday. But you may convince me

 

[kwired]

That's an interesting take. Can you elaborate on the reasoning? I'm all ears

I've never been overly concerned with aluminum wiring. From my experience, it's a matter of terminating it properly - which was rare back in its heyday. But you may convince me

I have no problems with using larger conductors that are stranded and especially those using newer alloys that have been around past 30 years or so. Small 12 and 10 AWG solid aluminum conductors that were used in the 60's and 70's pretty certain were not the same alloy as what aluminum conductors you will find today are. They still have too much expansion/contraction to say you can assure a good connection that will last a long time even when using connecting devices rated for use with them. There is a reason they stopped making them - not that great of a thing.

 

[ptonsparky]

You should have talked to the mother of the guys children, you would have gotten the job.

I agree, all or nothing in this case.

 

[kwired]

Insurance may still see aluminum as being a dirty word here and not want to provide coverage or do so at higher premium if that @$&* remains there.

 

[ramsy]

He said he found an insurance willing to write a policy, so long as he had all the devices were either aluminum rated, or pigtail the wiring to copper using AlumiConn connectors.

Nice documentation James. Looks almost as good as my finished invoices.

If Insurance inspector verifies compliance, and fails low ballers, you may get called back. Then you can charge quadruple for closing open permits, with exorcism of prior contractor.

 

[Fred B]

Nice catch on those double taps. Like that one with the stranded wire wrapped around the other conductor.

.........
1) question - what would you do in this situation? Would you write up a bid to only change the devices, or would you also include light fixtures and work in the panel or elsewhere?

AFA the estimate over initial work requested by insurance co, their info probably based from a H I with limited knowledge. You, the electrician, having far more knowledge and expertise would be acknowledged by insurance co as knowing what would be needed to make it safe, or safer, and likely would accept it and may even have given H O an even lower rate.
It is evident the HO has no idea of the safety issues of the aluminum wire (typical), to request bare minimum to appease the insurance co. Would go with the additional changes and "try" to educate the H O about the safety concerns and why the added work should be done.

2) encouragement - don't feel like you have to give in to a potential customer who wants a "bare minimum" approach. I didn't get this job, and really didn't expect to.

You not giving "bare minimum" was keeping with your knowledge and expertise of the issues with aluminum wire and to do anything less would potentially leave you at risk if something later does happen as a result. Here "if you touch it you own it" thus once you make some alteration or repair they automatically look for the last person to work on system when something happens that looks to be electrical in nature, even if you had no dealing with that part of system. So "giving in" not generally a good thing from a liability perspective.

 

[James L]

Nice documentation James. Looks almost as good as my finished invoices.

Thanks. I try to get pretty specific on scope of work, and itemize where it's practical to do so

If Insurance inspector verifies compliance, and fails low ballers, you may get called back....

possibly, but I suspect he'll find somebody who wants to make an easy thousand dollars for a long day, and won't have the wherewithall to think of fixtures and panel.

 

[James L]

Nice catch on those double taps. Like that one with the stranded wire wrapped around the other conductor.

doorbel transformer was mounted to the panel. Very common on those 60s-80s houses here to see that wire shoved under a breaker lug. I was surprised it was actually under the screw

AFA the estimate over initial work requested by insurance co, their info probably based from a H I with limited knowledge.

I thought so, too. I was surprised to have no mention of the panel issues because (at least in these parts) that's the number one thing inspectors look at.

no "bare minimum" ..... "if you touch it you own it" ..... So "giving in" not generally a good thing from a liability perspective.

exactly. I feel sorry for a guy who just goes by a scope the owner gives, and later on there's a fire in something he never touched.

 

[James L]

Insurance may still see aluminum as being a dirty word here and not want to provide coverage or do so at higher premium if that @$&* remains there.

For sure, you're right. They aren't interested in signing up for a future payout. Some areas might be proven to have higher risk

 

[hbiss]

Nice documentation James.

Except I had to laugh at "apply anti-oxidant ointment". Everybody knows it's an anti-oxidant balm.

-Hal

 

[Eddie702]

The only other thing I might have done was give him two prices. One for doing what the insurance co wanted and one for doing the light fixtures and panel etc.

That way he could compare your # to his other bid apples for apples.

Then, if he want's you to do the work you have a choice to do part or walk if he doesn't want to do the whole thing

 

[Rdcowart]

For me I would give estimates for everything that the insurance company wanted, and then one for everything that I found. If the customer doesn’t do everything then have them sign documents saying that you found this ,and the customer has gone against your professional advice to make the necessary repairs needed. You can’t make someone do something they don’t want to do, you got to let them find out the hard way. The last one I done like this we changed the panel and added Afci/gfci breakers. The panel is over 30 years old so I normally recommend replacing it when it hits that age just as preventive maintenance. I added the gfci protection in the panel so we could save space in the boxes with the wire nuts. I would have also gave him a price for a total rewire, with new panel, new meter, and all new smoke detectors. Give as many options as you can and let them decide what they want to do. As far as the price goes from the other guys I always explain to the customer that this is what it takes for me to provide the quality service that my clients have come to expect from me. I love when a customer tells me I’m double the price of the other guys, and then I get the job because of my customer service. You can do everything right and if the customer goes with the cheaper price, they will most likely be calling you back.
If you think it’s expensive to hire a top notch electrical professional, wait until you hire one that’s not.

 

[Coppersmith]

I once did one of those jobs where I installed Alumiconns. It was the biggest nightmare. I have never accepted another job like that nor will I ever. Alumiconns are huge and the boxes used back then were small. Trying to stick three Alumiconns plus extra pigtails into an already full box is horrible. Then repeat for every junction box in the house including all the ones in the attic. AND you find all sorts of problems you have to correct like missing connectors, flying splices, and zipcord used for permanent wiring. When approached to do aluminum remediation jobs I say rewire the house with copper.

 

[mikeames]

I once did one of those jobs where I installed Alumiconns. It was the biggest nightmare. I have never accepted another job like that nor will I ever. Alumiconns are huge and the boxes used back then were small. Trying to stick three Alumiconns plus extra pigtails into an already full box is horrible. Then repeat for every junction box in the house including all the ones in the attic.

Ditto that, Amen, or Awomen whatever it is today.