am I liable

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southernboys

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hey guys one for your thoughts On the job today which is a huricane damage fix ran into some lights that are fed by speaker wire. theyve been this way since before the storm. cieling was never brought down very little crawl space. working this job as an apprentice asked my electrician did he want to go ahead and hook up lights using speaker wire he said yes. so I had no choice but to do this install. my question is with my knowledge of this install being unsafe can I be held loegaly liable? had this been any other company I may have refused to do the work or even quit but this is one of the best companys in the area I lve in and I know this is an exception to the norm. what would you guys have done in my situation?
 
Re: am I liable

Oh man, your're gonna get it. :D

I don't know as much about the legal end of this as some other guys here do so I'll keep my feet out of my mouth.

I don't think someone being trained is going to have any liabilty but the idiot who claims to be qualified and is supposed to be training you, if he is in fact qualified to begin with, can, I believe, be held liable.
 
Re: am I liable

If you know that the wiring method is wrong and you still perform the job then "yes" you are liable. If you performed it not knowing any better, than no.
 
Re: am I liable

so chris what shoul have I done quit a great company? or been fired for refusing to do my job? do you see me quandry. Now if I was running the job I would have figured a way to pull in 14awg wire
 
Re: am I liable

We're talking about a couple of lights, right? What would have happened if you walked out to the truck and got some 14 and wired them anyhow while keeping your mouth shut? I suspect that you might have done it without being noticed if you swore your helper to secrecy. Even if you were "caught", you could just say that you couldn't hook that speaker wire back up in good conscience. It would be ture, and think that almost any guy will respect that reasoning.

I've gotta say that I've "discovered" some stuff that I've left alone, but once I "touch it", I feel that I am liable to put it back to code.
 
Re: am I liable

shunk once again I agree but I was the helper/apprentice my electrician was in the same room with me I guess if it happens again I will stand up for what I believe in since Ive been coming to the same conclusion as you guys thanks any other opinions
 
Re: am I liable

There is a legal term and i belive it is spelt culpilable negligance,in short if you knowingly do something that could endanger IE: kill then you are held responsible in the event of that death.
Years ago I worked for the new york transit system working on subway cars in operation,one of the road car inspectors had cut out over the allowed 50 % of the air brakes on a passenger train.it split a track switch and was involved in a collision that killed people he went to jail for knowingly doing something that put the public in danger and subsequently killed people.
I have always remembered that event and have never been bullied into doing something that could kill.Job shmob the owners of that company would agree that they too would not do anything to endanger the public or thier license.
Lead man says make a flyng splice I say you do it,it is illegal and unsafe.Not sure about you but I do not like bars ;) and by knowingly doing an install that is illegal we open ourselves to this senario :eek:
 
Re: am I liable

In today's society, it isn't a question of whether we are held responsible or not but a question of how responsible. Once one is involved with a project he/she has assumed a certain level of responsibility like it or not. There is truth in the statemet that just being there makes one 10% liable. What the courts decide is to what level one is responsible.

With regard to your question of being fired for refusing to do your job: we have a responsibility to take safety into consideration. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not believe any company anywhere in the United States could stand up in court to firing you for not performing what can be proved to be an unsafe work practice. I believe the Fair Labor Standards Act protects employees from being forced to do something that constitutes unnecessary risk to life and limb.

Anyone else concur?

Bob
 
Re: am I liable

I know it's hard when your an apprentice, but I have always believed that when something is obviously wrong like hooking up speaker wire for a light, don't even ask the lead if he want's you to do that. Just get the right stuff to do the job correctly, as long as you are following the code, and make them stop you. Then you really have a good leg to stand on. If they try to fire you for doing the right thing they are in lots of trouble. Don't be belligerent about it or anything, just do what you know is right and safe. Don't use safety as an excuse not to do something.

If you get told to do something unsafe or wrong, just let them know what you need to do or get to do the job correctly. If they want to try and get you in trouble for doing it right, let them stand before the employment board for wrongful termination. Because when you go for unemployment they will want to know why you were fired. Be honest about it, and it may not seem like it at the time, but things will work out.

When I hit 12 years in the Navy, I stood up against a very unsafe practice that I was being directed to do. I was told that I will do what the Captain of the ship tells me to do. Well I walked of the job, let me say not easy to do in the military. They didn't do anything to me right away and afterwards they tried but they couldn't. Why couldn't they, well the forced someone else to do it the unsafe way, caused better than $1,000,000,000 (Yes 9 zero's) of damage and were extremely lucky they did not kill somebody. So they still tried to say it was my fault for not speaking up strongly enough. Excuse me, walking off a job and flat out telling a senior officer that I won't do it is not very strong? I was hidden in a little hole as a computer information guy for a while and told to keep my mouth shut. Well to this day I do not regret my actions one bit, even though it basically ruined my career.

Anyway I ramble on to much. Stick to safety it will keep you alive and the people you work with and for. Hey, if the company is so great, why would an electrician not have you do it right?
 
Re: am I liable

Slightly off topic, but did you guy's hear about the Amusement Park operator who jumped out a safety limit on a ride that resulted in a womans death? He's going to jail for 3-5 years most likely.
 
Re: am I liable

We all have to make decisions, and we all have to face the consequences of those decisions. For my part, I would rather face the consequences of doing the right thing, then face the consequences of doing the wrong thing.
 
Re: am I liable

What I have used as a yardstick is, would I feel comfortable sitting on a witness stand looking into a court room with the victims or their surviving family members explaining what I did and why I did it that way? I left a "good" job because when it came to code violations the attitude at upper level was:
1) The customer didn't know about it.
2) Nobody had been injured to date.
3) It would cost a lot of money to fix.
4) The engineer responsible for the work wouldn't be held accountable because he puts a lot of hours in for the company.

Now I have what I believe is a better job, with a company that insists on doing things by the book.
 
Re: am I liable

Even good companies some times have less than qualified and scrupulous people working for them.
You should have refused to do this work. it is not a matter of method but code and safety. If the person instructing you to do this fires you, take it to the owner and explain the situation. If the company is as good as you say you will have a job and your lead person will not.
How do you live with yourself if the home burns down and possibly kills some one.
 
Re: am I liable

Isn't hind sight great? I am sure as an apprentice you have learned from this to help you in the future. This is my suggestion go to his supervisor and explain it to him not to get anyone in trouble but to rectify this problem if it is a great company as you say they should go and do it right the second time.
 
Re: am I liable

Unfortunately, real estate snots will not pay to fix something that "works" even though it is illegal or just so old that somebody has to kill it.

Actually, real estate snots want ALL their electrical work done for free. Half of them are moronic enough to put up drywall and paint before calling an electrician. The other half are obsessive compulsive enough to put up drywall before rough inspection.

Next time somebody want me to run a load calculation for an apartment building I am going to put down zero amps at zero volts for the service capacity. Code section cited is that for zero dollars they get zero amps.
 
Re: am I liable

Southern Boy,

If this is such a great company, then your Boss should commend you for bringing this to his/her attention. If you get fired for this, sue the piss out of them for wrongful termination. Darryl Issacs would have a field day with this one. This could be your get rich scam bud. O, by the way, Instead of use 6-3 for my range, can I just use about 80 doorbell wires all twisted up for each leg of the three wires going to the range? It may work? But is it legal?
 
Re: am I liable

Southernboys,
I worked in Georgia for several years before going out on my own. I was fired or asked to leave a couple of times for refusing to do dangerous work ( fire hazards and personnel safety ). Most southern states can fire people for any or no reason. They normally list cause as lack of production or bad attitude ( not wanting to be killed for profit). Any decent company will not take chances with employees or customers ( too expensive ). If you wish to protect yourself allways keep a written log. ( who you informed and corrections taken, along with date& time ).Lights on speaker wire is not something that is Grand-fathered in. Its a serious fire hazard and can be reported to the local AHJ or the fire marshel. If they dont't take corrective action it's their problem. You may not be the company that gets the job, but someone will. To this day I have no regrets about not puting profit ahead of safety. Start safe work habits early and you'll sleep better.
 
Re: am I liable

Sometimes we see things that may not be perfect, maybe don't meet current code, and maybe are not the way they "should" be.

There are also things that are without a doubt a hazard.

In the first case, your obligation might only extend to discussing it with a qualified person (such as the man training you). As an apprentice, you may not have the capability of making such a judgement call on your own about the situation, and presumably he does. Part of his responsibility in training you is helping you to learn how to make those judgement calls.

On the other hand, deliberately doing something that creates a hazard to someone else is a different case. Regardless of the legal responsibility, you have a moral obligation not to put someone else at risk. And that obligation ought to mean more to you than the legal one.

<added> Having said that, there may be cases where such an install might be "legal" and safe. It does not sound like it's possible, but you might be able to concoct some kind of scenario where it is.

Is it by any chance a low voltage lighting system?

Are you sure it is "speaker" wire and not something else?

[ May 20, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 
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