Ampacities for Metric Sized Conductors

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charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
  1. Is there an authoritative source of information for the ampacities of conductors that are used in other countries and that are manufactured in metric sizes?
  2. Put another way, are there tables that are equivalent, in metric sizes, to the NEC tables 310.16 and 250.122?
  3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?
I am reviewing the design for a project at a military base in a mid-east country. I made a comment that noted that a 30 amp circuit only had a 4 mm2 EGC (close to our #12), and saying it should be 6 mm2 (close to our #10). The design engineer responded that the ampacity of a 4 mm2 was close to that of a #10, so it should be fine. I am inclined to disagree, because when the EGC is doing its job, the wire's ampacity is not the important factor.

Thoughts?
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
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-
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Engineer/Technician
  1. Is there an authoritative source of information for the ampacities of conductors that are used in other countries and that are manufactured in metric sizes?
  2. Put another way, are there tables that are equivalent, in metric sizes, to the NEC tables 310.16 and 250.122?
  3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?
I am reviewing the design for a project at a military base in a mid-east country. I made a comment that noted that a 30 amp circuit only had a 4 mm2 EGC (close to our #12), and saying it should be 6 mm2 (close to our #10). The design engineer responded that the ampacity of a 4 mm2 was close to that of a #10, so it should be fine. I am inclined to disagree, because when the EGC is doing its job, the wire's ampacity is not the important factor.

Thoughts?
4 mm2 wire ampacity is 26 amps, so I guess it’s closer to #10 than #12...
6mm2 is 34 amps.

I guess close is relative...

I didn’t think many Middle East countries had building codes..
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Are you comparing the ampacity at the same temperature, and are you considering the 'small conductor' limits which are different from the ampacity?

The 'ampacity' of #12 at 75C is 25A, and #10 is 35A, but we are required to protect them at 20A and 30A for general purpose circuits.

-Jon
 

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Jon, this is really about the EGC. I am aware of the small conductor rules.

Hv&Lv, this is a military base for which the US Army Corps of Engineers is providing support. They are committed to following codes, though sometimes the British versions take precedence. More importantly, where did you get the ampacity values?
 

Hv&Lv

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-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
It was from Chinese electrical codes.
I did some work in Belize a couple of years back and went by those since their wire was in mm, and it was apparent the Chinese codes were more restrictive than the codes they were following(if any)
They use concrete posts, which is great, but then run the SE cable in white plumbing pipe with short 90s and 45s. They build the pipe around the cable... and it looked like anything goes on the inside of the residences also.
my favorite was the “widow maker”.. it’s a shower head heater that isn’t grounded, and when you reach up in the water spray you feel the electrical tingle..
anyway...


Somewhere in my mess I have a chart, I’ll see if I can find it and post a pic.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Thanks for the information. Now let me return to my original question #3:
3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?

I am looking for opinions regarding the design engineer's assertion that since a 4 mm2 conductor has an ampacity "close to" that of a #10, it is acceptable to use a 4 mm2 as the EGC on a 30 amp circuit.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Seems to me that 250.122(B) would require the following sizing methodology when using metric conductors:

- Determine the AWG sizes that would be used for ungrounded conductors and EGC of the circuit.
- Take their area ratio.
- Apply that area ratio to the metric ungrounded conductors used in the circuit to determine the EGC size to use.

Cheers, Wayne
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I suspect but don't know that EGC sizing is based on short term impedance rather than on ampacity.

I believe that Wayne is on the right track. If you use a particular size conductor for a 20A or 30A circuit, then use the same size conductor as the EGC. For larger circuits use the area ratio with the corresponding conductor size, or perhaps use conductor cross section:

From 250.122:
6000A requires 800kCmil EGC, or 133 circular mils per amp
3000A requires 400kCmil EGC, same
300A requires 4awg or 41.7kCmil EGC, 139 circular mils per amp
100A requires 8 awg or 16.5kCmil EGC, 165 circular mils per amp
60A requires 10awg or 10.4kCmil EGC, 173 circular mils per amp
So for 300A and above it is pretty much the same circular mils per amp, below we hit the small conductor limits.

-Jon
 

RumRunner

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
  1. Is there an authoritative source of information for the ampacities of conductors that are used in other countries and that are manufactured in metric sizes?
  2. Put another way, are there tables that are equivalent, in metric sizes, to the NEC tables 310.16 and 250.122?
  3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?
I am reviewing the design for a project at a military base in a mid-east country. I made a comment that noted that a 30 amp circuit only had a 4 mm2 EGC (close to our #12), and saying it should be 6 mm2 (close to our #10). The design engineer responded that the ampacity of a 4 mm2 was close to that of a #10, so it should be fine. I am inclined to disagree, because when the EGC is doing its job, the wire's ampacity is not the important factor.

Thoughts?

The British Standards differ in terms of accepted practices-- as applied to electrical installations that will corroborate with their building designs.

For example: There is a limit on the number of outlets for a specific area. If the area exceeds 100 m2, you need to have two branch circuits.

This requirement is noted on their BS 7671. This BS standard is the equivalent to our NEC.
It covers a wide range of guidance unlike the NFPA.

Now, that is just one quirkiness to the British Standard.
You alluded to the British version of codes. . . yes, they do follow codes, their own codes.

The ampacity of conductors [and you know this already] is dependent upon the cross-section of the conductor.
Whether the cross-section is expressed in mm2 or AWG, the ampacity would remain dependent on the thickness of the wire.

The apprehension towards the engineer's nonchalant: "it would be OK " to use a smaller conductor for a 30 Amp Circuit breaker-- doesn't bode well with us gringos with our "fanatical" adherence to our NEC.
The Middle East countries use the BS 7671 wiring standard. There is no NEC there.

The reason the engineer say that 4mm2 is acceptable is:

Branch circuits for receptacle (plugs) are wired with MAIN RINGS. This is a system not allowed in NEC but is common in countries with deep British influence.
MAIN RINGS--if wired properly have a certain advantage over North America's RADIAL SYSTEM.

As mentioned: "if wired properly" also offers a safe wiring. British electricians are more than capable of wiring things properly. They command respect in the community.. .a noble job indeed.

MAIN RING system allows a smaller wire size, not only that these countries operate at 240 volts , 50 hz.
Voltage and frequency are irrelevant in this discussion at this point-- we are concerned of current that would flow through the conductor.

The MAIN RING system is wired that originates from the circuit breaker to the receptacles (plugs) that are daisy-chained and then continues back to the same circuit breaker.
I didn't cover the neutral because it's not protected by the CB.

Picture a closed loop that completes a circle that ends where it started.

So, basically you have two wires ( one going out and one coming back) that are feeding a group of outlets from a common circuit breaker.
You have two wires serving as home run for one single branch circuit. This is the reason why you can get by with smaller wires.

Australia uses the British Standard and Malaysia and Singapore too.
While on vacation I helped wire my sister's house remodel in Melbourne-- almost ten years ago.
Brother in law is a building contractor.


Google BS 7671 for British wiring regulations.

I also suggest verifying whether the British MAIN RING is used since Corps of Engineers are involved on the project.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Time to add standard metric conduit and ampacity to the NEC as this is getting ridiculous being the last country on earth not using metric....

Charlie I suggest looking at the Saudi electrical code and the Philippine electrical code.
Both are free downloads and more 'open' standards than the NEC ,and I believe metricized.

Also the Philippine NEC is based on the NEC with minimal modifications one is 230V replaces 120V and wires are in metric if I recall.

GE makes a number of breakers and products that meet the Philippine code like plug in residential breakers that are rated for the more commonly used 415Y230 or just '240'.

And side comment, If you have any say in what colors are used by the local installers I strongly suggest avoiding blue, and use green with a yellow stripe for the ECG. Trust me.
 

dkidd

Senior Member
Location
here
Occupation
PE
Thanks for the information. Now let me return to my original question #3:
3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?

I am looking for opinions regarding the design engineer's assertion that since a 4 mm2 conductor has an ampacity "close to" that of a #10, it is acceptable to use a 4 mm2 as the EGC on a 30 amp circuit.
I found this
Thanks for the information. Now let me return to my original question #3:
3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?

I am looking for opinions regarding the design engineer's assertion that since a 4 mm2 conductor has an ampacity "close to" that of a #10, it is acceptable to use a 4 mm2 as the EGC on a 30 amp circuit.

I found this information on EGC sizing per IEC 60364-5-54:

Metric EGC.JPG
 

Besoeker3

Senior Member
Location
UK
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
  1. Is there an authoritative source of information for the ampacities of conductors that are used in other countries and that are manufactured in metric sizes?
  2. Put another way, are there tables that are equivalent, in metric sizes, to the NEC tables 310.16 and 250.122?
  3. Do you think the selection of EGC sizes (as displayed in table 250.122) was based on the ampacity of the conductor that will serve as the EGC?
I am reviewing the design for a project at a military base in a mid-east country. I made a comment that noted that a 30 amp circuit only had a 4 mm2 EGC (close to our #12), and saying it should be 6 mm2 (close to our #10). The design engineer responded that the ampacity of a 4 mm2 was close to that of a #10, so it should be fine. I am inclined to disagree, because when the EGC is doing its job, the wire's ampacity is not the important factor.

Thoughts?
A few thoughts.
Single phase 26mm2 can be single single phase in a closed insulating wall.
In a closed wall in conduit single phase may single phase 32 phase.
Clipped, touching clipped at 37 pf.
Then there is the whole range of mulitcore core etc...........
 
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