Ampacity of conductors in Auxiliary Gutters

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Girl Engineer

Member
Location
Portland, OR
Article 366.23(A) allows no derating for 30 conductors or less. When you hit 31 conductors, you need derate by 40% per 310.15(B)(3)(a). Does anyone know the basis for this sudden derating? Why is a full rating on 29 conductors okay, and 31 conductors need to be derated 40%?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Ingenieur, do you really think they picked a random number of cables with no study or research?

Answering only for myself, yes, yes I do. That's how AFCI's wound up in the code. Think about it; how is there a step function difference in the amount of heat dissipated by 30 conductors vs 31? There isn't. Logically there is either a linear or exponential increase in the dissipation requirement, depending on the conductor configuration. There should be an interval table for 10-15, 16-20, 21-25, etc. or something similar.

These standards are consensus standards. People vote on where to draw the line and that's it. They may or may not have independent research to support the consensus.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Ingenieur, do you really think they picked a random number of cables with no study or research?

Yep. Even if there was some criteria by which they determined 30 was the right number, there is a huge difference between 30 lightly loaded conductors and 30 conductors that are running at full ampacity, yet you get no credit (except as class 1 conductors) for the lightly loaded conductors that generate no appreciable heat.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Yes
I can think of no technical reasoning

you could have 30 #12 with 10 A each (all single ph)
or 32 with 5 A
which field is stronger? Which generates more heat?
chances are you'll have some cancellation since they are likely H/N pairs

how about 30 1/0 with 60 A vs 32 with 40 A?

no rhyme nor reason
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes
I can think of no technical reasoning

you could have 30 #12 with 10 A each (all single ph)
or 32 with 5 A
which field is stronger? Which generates more heat?
chances are you'll have some cancellation since they are likely H/N pairs

how about 30 1/0 with 60 A vs 32 with 40 A?

no rhyme nor reason

Ours is not
To reason why
Ours is just to
Blindly comply

Burma Shave

(For those of us old enough to remember...) :D
 
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Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Yes
I can think of no technical reasoning

you could have 30 #12 with 10 A each (all single ph)
or 32 with 5 A
which field is stronger? Which generates more heat?
chances are you'll have some cancellation since they are likely H/N pairs

how about 30 1/0 with 60 A vs 32 with 40 A?

no rhyme nor reason

Heat does not cancel among the balanced set of conductors in the same circuit. Heat accumulates.

Magnetic fields cancel among opposite directed current-carrying conductors, or complete sets of phases, but not ohmic heating.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
There are some technical requirements
conductor < 20% of gutter area
must derate in nonmetallic gutters
Cu busbar i density <1000A/sq in

sounds temperature related?
perhaps they looked at temp rise and determined a max fill
gutter area will always be 5 times conductor area

some relationship of gutter area, conductor area and current to limit temp rise?

#12 20 A x 30 = 600 A ( or 25 A per ckt?)
Cu Area = 0.154 sq in
gutter area = 0.77 sq in
P loss = 612 W/LF
Gutter vol per LF - cond area = 7.39 cu in
Gutter surface area per LF = 42.1 sq in (assuming sq gutter)
W/cu in = 82.8
W/sq in = 14.5

#3 100 A x 30 = 3000 A
Cu Area = 1.239 sq in
gutter area = 6.195 sq in
P loss per = 2160 W/LF
Gutter vol per LF - cond area = 59.47 cu in / LF
Gutter surface area per LF = 119.5 sq in
W/cu in = 36.3
W/sq in = 18

if a relationship exists I can't see it
someone needs to do it for a dozen cond sizes on excel and plot :)
maybe calc temp rise of the volume?
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Heat does not cancel among the balanced set of conductors in the same circuit. Heat accumulates.

Magnetic fields cancel among opposite directed current-carrying conductors, or complete sets of phases, but not ohmic heating.

Lol
not heat but field
do I appear THAT dumb? :dunce:
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
What you wrote:



It could be taken as meaning what Carlutch took it to be. Your posts in general tend to be rather terse.

you are being selective

Yes
I can think of no technical reasoning

you could have 30 #12 with 10 A each (all single ph)
or 32 with 5 A
which field is stronger? Which generates more heat?
chances are you'll have some cancellation since they are likely H/N pairs

how about 30 1/0 with 60 A vs 32 with 40 A?

no rhyme nor reason

NO ONE with HS physics thinks heat 'cancels'

although if fields cancel, less induction, possibly less heating effect?
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
People have trouble accepting that some things in the NEC are totally arbitrary? Really? I've been involved in NEC revisions as much as anyone can get without being on a CMP since 2005 and I have seen how totally arbitrary stuff makes it in time and again.
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
There is a relation between conduit fill and gutter fill in code. If the wires fulfill the conduit fill rule as regards ampacity derating factors (310-15b2), there is no limit to the number of wires permitted in a gutter subject to maximum 20℅ gutter cross-sectional area.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
Ingenieur, do you really think they picked a random number of cables with no study or research?

That one made me laugh, and then feel a little apprehensive, wondering if I'd be the only one to think, without hesitation, "yes."

gadfly56 said:
Answering only for myself, yes, yes I do...

I felt instantly better. Thank you.

...That's how AFCI's wound up in the code...

I've always assumed bribes were involved on that one.
 

Girl Engineer

Member
Location
Portland, OR
Answering only for myself, yes, yes I do. That's how AFCI's wound up in the code. Think about it; how is there a step function difference in the amount of heat dissipated by 30 conductors vs 31? There isn't. Logically there is either a linear or exponential increase in the dissipation requirement, depending on the conductor configuration. There should be an interval table for 10-15, 16-20, 21-25, etc. or something similar.

These standards are consensus standards. People vote on where to draw the line and that's it. They may or may not have independent research to support the consensus.

IDK gadfly, I think some people stood to make a lot of money off ACDIs. I sure hope it also reduced fires.

I agree about the interval table. That is why I brought this up.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
IDK gadfly, I think some people stood to make a lot of money off ACDIs. I sure hope it also reduced fires.

I agree about the interval table. That is why I brought this up.

Hope thrives where knowledge languishes. To my knowledge there are absolutely no field tests to support the claims. It was all built on models.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
For the wireway fill, there is also an exception for stage lighting and circuits - no derating no matter how many wires you put in a wireway as long as 20% fill isn't exceeded.

Granted, stage lighting usually has so many branch circuits that they probably won't ever all be used at full load at once, but it seems like another arbitrary rule.

I have one project with over 150 20A branch circuits going up to above. Those could all be in a single wireway.
 
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