amps on h2o line

[greenjeans]

I'm having a problem with a 200 amp heavy up i installed in august.
while finishing up the service up grade, i reconnected the #4 CU GEC to the 3/4" cu h2o line ( had been disconnected by previous owner and never reconnected) the new owners had no idea what it was when they painted the garage wire and pipe. so it never sparked on them. cleaned up the CU pipe and wire, put a new h2o GND clamp on and when i connected the GEC, sparks!!
once installed, i metered the #4 CU and found 6 Amps on the line, but my service was not energized yet so i called the local PWR company and requested them to meter the 9 homes being serviced by the xformer.they checked all the lines and said it was fine. i said its not fine, request #2 . talked to two supervisors, said they understood the problem and would fix it. no-go, said was no problem, NOW WHAT!! homeowner wants the problem fixed and so do i, however she doesn't want me to charge her for the time spend on this problem. its not my problem, what do i do??? it seems so simple to fix. meter all 9 homes neutrals and hots and find the one that doesn't add up, notify that home owner, tell them theres a problem with their service --they wont do it , even after #3 request and local inspector wont get involved any ideas???

 

[iwire]

There is likely no problem at all, considering the power company already checked it out I would forget about it.

6 amps on the water line is no big deal or surprise.

The metal underground water line is in parallel with all the other homes neutrals, even if everyones neutral is perfect there will be current on the water line.

 

[mdshunk]

All those homes on that transformer also share the same underground metal pipework, in all likelihood. Everything sounds normal to me too. Kirchoff's Law.

 

[brian john]

If you'd like to resolve the issue install a die-electric coupling ((insulated coupling). BUT you must keep the water pipe GEC except it is now the water pipe bond, and you must install new electrodes, which you most likely did when you installed the new service.

 

[mdshunk]

If you'd like to resolve the issue install a die-electric coupling ((insulated coupling). BUT you must keep the water pipe GEC except it is now the water pipe bond, and you must install new electrodes, which you most likely did when you installed the new service.

I think that would solve the "problem", but I'm struggling with how to make that legal. If it's metal pipe coming in, you need to use it. If you install a dielectric coupling, now you have to bond the inside pipework. After you bond the interior pipework and hit the water pipe as a GEC, you've just defeated the dielectric coupling.

 

[suemarkp]

Put the coupling outside, not inside. I would think anywhere outside is fine, if the goal is to make sure your metal pipes aren't touching your neighbors metal pipes. You'll still get some current on the pipes because of the ground electrodes, but at least it is earth coupled and no longer hard piped.

 

[mdshunk]

Put the coupling outside, not inside.

Ahh... now that's thinking outside of the... basement.

 

[iwire]

If you'd like to resolve the issue install a die-electric coupling ((insulated coupling).

I think that would solve the "problem", but I'm struggling with how to make that legal.

I agree with Marc, for an EC to do that....eliminate a 'present' electrode...is an NEC violation.

If an electrode is present we must use it.

Put the coupling outside, not inside. I would think anywhere outside is fine, .

That might be an idea if you place it outside beyond 10' from the house you would have still isolated it and you would still have the original water pipe electrode.

Now that said, is there any evidence that we should even be concerned with this current on the water piping system?
There are literally millions of these water pipes with current on them and they seem to be working fine.

 

[megawatt]

This has always been a sore spot with Me. I have never liked interconnected grounds via the water line.
I don't have a problem wiith bonding the metal water pipes INSIDE the residence, but too often a lost / poor neutral connection from house A is never noticed because it is being carried thru the metal undergroung piping to the properly grounded neutral in home B.
This is sometimes found by an unsuspecting Handyman, Plumber, or Home owner when they cut, or break the water pipe connection. Not often, but sometimes a deadly result.
We have probably all heard of stories where a plumber has been electrocuted while changing out a hot water tank, or laying under a house repairing a leak, but I seem to remember an article where a gasoline explosion was caused by such a spark while making a plumbing repair.
I think the grounging & bonding systems should stop at the foundation. Then when home A has a neutral / grounding issue it will be only at that location.
Plastic from the meter to the house !

 

[iwire]

I think the grounding & bonding systems should stop at the foundation. Then when home A has a neutral / grounding issue it will be only at that location.

The best way to make that happen would be a code proposal asking for a change in the current NEC

Plastic from the meter to the house !

In this area water meters are in the house but plastic water mains are quickly becoming the norm anyway.

 

[JohnJ0906]

In this area... plastic water mains are quickly becoming the norm anyway.

Here too. Haven't seen a new single family house on city water with a copper main in years.

 

[greenjeans]

saftey issue

saftey issue

thanks for the input, no harm -no foul. as long as no one touches or disconnects it. my concern is that there is a problem somewhere else. I'm just looking for the best out come.there should be zero amps on the gec. hopefully when the lineman comes out to heavy up the line at the house, they will see the problem(they were notified by me about this problem) and will take the right action. anyway thanks again.

Cullen Electric Va.

 

[George Stolz]

I agree with Marc, for an EC to do that....eliminate a 'present' electrode...is an NEC violation.

If an electrode is present we must use it.

IMO, if a dielectric coupling is installed 1" from the exterior of the basement wall, there is no longer a grounding electrode present that is required to be used. I don't see a prohibition from 'destroying' an electrode to escape the requirement to use it, literally speaking.

Put the coupling outside, not inside. I would think anywhere outside is fine...

That might be an idea if you place it outside beyond 10' from the house you would have still isolated it and you would still have the original water pipe electrode.

I agree, that's a really good idea, especially if the tap is accessible out at the street to do it without any digging.

Now that said, is there any evidence that we should even be concerned with this current on the water piping system?
There are literally millions of these water pipes with current on them and they seem to be working fine.

I don't think we have any electrical problems, but doesn't it corrode the piping over time? I forget whether that was truth or fiction, it could have been shot down by a report or something, it's been a while since this was discussed.

 

[George Stolz]

there should be zero amps on the gec.

As Iwire pointed out, everyone's neutral could be in fine shape and still push 6 amps onto your water line and service neutral.

Electricity seeks all paths back to the source in proportion to their resistance. Since the metal water lines' resistances are comparable to the neutral connecting each electrical service to their source, then a percentage of that power is going to head out by way of the water line, even in a perfect system.

 

[iwire]

IMO, if a dielectric coupling is installed 1" from the exterior of the basement wall, there is no longer a grounding electrode present that is required to be used. I don't see a prohibition from 'destroying' an electrode to escape the requirement to use it, literally speaking.

I think that is playing games with the requirements.

If the plumber destroys it before the EC is involved thats one thing.

If an EC working under the NEC arrives on the job and intentionally destroys an electrode which is 'present' instead of connecting to it they have in fact violated the requirement to use it per 250.50

 

[George Stolz]

I think that is playing games with the requirements.

Yeah, you got a point.

I'm gonna think on this some more.

 

[megawatt]

Poll ?

Poll ?

A lot of readers, but few posters. How about everyone putting in Your 2 cents.
Metal underground piping.....Good idea or potential hazard ?

 

[peter d]

Metal underground piping.....Good idea or potential hazard ?

I think history has proven that it's a good grounding electrode but it can be extremely hazardous for water company workers.

 

[George Stolz]

Bob, in thinking, there is looking. Here's a proposal to the 2005 cycle from a familiar name:

5-119 Log #1882 NEC-P05
(250-50 Exception (New) )
Final Action: Reject
Submitter: Donald A. Ganiere Ottawa, IL

Recommendation:
Add a new Exception as follows:
Exception: Where an approved insulating section of water pipe is installed within 300 mm (1 ft) of the water pipe?s entrance to the building, the metal under ground water pipe shall not be required to be used as a grounding electrode.

Substantiation:
The use of the metal under ground water pipe creates a parallel path for grounded conductor current. This path causes excessive EMF and also presents an electrical shock hazard to water workers. This proposal allows the designers of the electrical system to eliminate these possible hazards if they so choose. Current code requires that these hazards be created.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement:
The panel maintains its position that all electrodes on the premises "if available" are required to be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. The submitter does not include substantiation that clearly indicates that the proposed change increases electrical safety. If grounding electrodes on the premises are not bonded together, the possibility of differences of potential can exist between those that form the grounding electrode system and those that are isolated from the system. Also when events such as line surges and lightning strikes at the building or premises or in the vicinity of the building or structure, the potential on all conducting elements (grounding electrodes) in the earth should rise at the same potential thus reducing fire and shock hazards in or on the building.

Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 16​

They agree with you, but I don't see how the existing language actually prohibits it. I also don't quite understand their substantiation, as arcing through dirt to a disconnected section of copper water pipe underground would be very difficult to view as a fire/shock hazard.

Not trying to argue, just passing the time.

I actually better get out and finish that last 50' of fence, and then it will be done! ​

 

[brian john]

Now that said, is there any evidence that we should even be concerned with this current on the water piping system?

Bob as I have stated in other threads regarding EMF I try not to make a determination if this is dangerous or not, but if hired to test a facility or residence and find this "PROBLEM?" I note it in my reports.