And you think you have problems?

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pmarkham7

Member
I was hoping that maybe I could get some sound advise or for someone to lead me in the right direction on a major issue our community has in River Ridge Golf and Camping Club located in Bracey, Virginia.

River Ridge is a private gated "Camping" community located in Mecklenburg County, Virginia. It was developed back in the early 70's as a campground where Recreational Vehicles were only permitted to stay for 30 days at a time. Mobile homes were permitted on specific sites for seasonal use only. That has evolved and over time permission has been granted to all lot owners allowing them to live here full time if they choose and we now have over 200 full time permanent residents. There are 1,516 lots privately owned lots with approx. 975 being in Camping Villages and the remainder being mobile homes lots. Lot owners are permitted to build "A" frames & additions over and onto their RV most of which are set in place permanent and will never leave the grounds.

The electrical distribution system serving all of the camping villages is owned, maintained & operated by the River Ridge Association and each lot in the camping villages is sub-metered with each lot owner charged for what power they use each month.
Mecklenburg Electric Coop (MEC) has 32 meters they read and that is how we receive and are billed for our electrical service in the camping villages and common areas. MEC does not and will not provide individual electrical service directly to the camping village lot owners but they do provide all electrical service to the mobile home lots as they are required to do.

MEC provides underground service at a pad mounted transformer at each location where there is typically a 600A, pad mounted MDP with a max. of (6) 175A circuit breakers. The MEC meter is attached to the side of the MDP at each location.
The transformer and MDP w/meter sit side by side and are spaced thru -out each camping village.

The Electrical Distribution System (EDS) was designed originally having one double sided pedestal serving two lots. There are some exceptions to that where single pedestals were used. Each pedestal originally had a SP 30A & SP 20A receptacle available to use for each lot and only 120V power was provided to each lot owner. The 20A receptacle provided in the pedestal is not GFCI and was basically to provide small appliance loads to put in a tent, etc. No heaters, hot plates or the likes was permitted when this site was developed and under the developers control.

Each pedestal has a L1 and L2 serving it but L1 served one lot and L2 serves the adjoining lot. 120/240V, 1 phase, 3 wire was available at the feed thru lugs in each pedestal base but each phase and buss was separated by lot in the interior of the pedestals. Over a 35 year period this has been altered so that many pedestals now provide 120/240 volt, 1 phase power to lot owners. The basic distribution system was designed realistically to provide a max. of 30 amp, 120V, 1 phase power to each lot/RV. The 20A receptacle was not considered in the load calculations when the system was originally designed.

We now have many instances where lots (over 300) have 50A double pole breakers or larger and in many instances no wire size upgrades were performed inside the pedestal. Every violation that you can possible imagine exists because of mistakes made in the past including allowing the lot owners to wire inside the pedestals at their wimp. All the underground wiring is original and in deplorable condition.

The typical pad mounted main distribution panelboards for our EDS are rated 600 amp and are non-fused with a max. of (6) 175A,DP breakers in them. Some of these MDP's are serving over 50-75 lots off each panelboard. Some 175 A breakers are feeding over 20 lots. Feeding the pedestals from the 175A CB in the MDP are typically 2 #2/0 Al per phase with a single #2/0 AL neutral loop fed thru lugs on each pedestal. 120/240V, 1 phase, 3 wire.

The neutral/grounded conductor is 1/2 size of the ungrounded conductors. Corrosion, overloading, lack of PM, open neutrals, burned conductors and equipment age are just a few of the problems we are encountering.
The wire is direct buried and is loop fed thru from pedestal to pedestal sometimes for many hundreds of feet. Some runs are well over 800 feet. We have issues with voltage drop at the end of the runs as may be expected.

Each MDP is a separate service and each has a power co. meter. They are mostly all outside sitting next to the transformer on a concrete pad.
The MDP/Service are grounded with (2) ground rods as the grounding electrode system. All underground water pipes are PVC.
Here is where we have a major problem. There is no equipment ground conductor run with the feeder conductors from the MDP to each pedestal. The pedestals if not considered as separate structures should have been treated as sub-panels and they should have had a equipment ground conductor run with the feeder conductors continuous from the derived service to and from each pedestal. At the pedestals in some instances the neutrals and grounds are separated. There are some that are not separated and on the same buss. There are no ground rods or a grounding electrode system at any of the pedestals.

I am the co-chairman of the Electrical Committee and the design coordinator working on a master plan to replace the entire EDS in all camping villages which will take a few years to design and to complete.
In the mean time the associations insurance company requires that we (the association) ground the pedestals/EDS, correct the overcurrent protection issues and to make the EDS "safe". They are for good reasons "recommending" that we bring the system up to current code. (2002 NEC is the current edition per VUSBC in Virginia)

What we all on the committee agree to is that what is there is not right and needs to be corrected. We are committed to make the EDS safe for all
in the camping villages and common areas. Safety first is our main focus and concern.

We are not in total agreement on the correct way to solve this problem in the interim until we can replace everything. We have consulted with engineers, consultants and other master electricians and as you may suspect we have heard a slew of different solutions and interpretations from each one. Some have even said we have no problem and not to worry about it.

Providing a equipment ground conductor from the service to each pedestal and separating the grounds and neutrals at the pedestal to comply with 551.76(A) is not a option as there is a estimated 27-30 miles of wiring and 480 pedestals that are involved. We are intending to replace all wiring, distribution equipment, pedestals and all misc. items from start to finish and to upgrade to 50A, 120/240V 1 phase power to each lot. We have no intention on re-using anything except on a temporary basis to maintain service in the interim and during the upgrades.

I have spoken to plan reviewers, inspectors, engineers and electricians in my area (Northern Virginia) and many do agree and accept the Oregon State Code Interpretation that states "For the purpose of this interpretation, the service, feeder and RV pedestals shall be considered a single structure as defined by Article 100 of the National Electric Code." This is a Oregon Statewide Code Interpretation No: 06-01 RV Pedestal Grounding Electrodes that is on point and is the basis for what we understand 2002 NEC Article 551.76 requires which is a EGC run with the feeders and grounding electrodes are not required at the pedestal and states neutral conductor shall not to be used as an equipment ground.

That interpretation is clearly a sound basis that would appear to eliminate using Art. 230.32(B)(2) as a solution if we agree that there is no separate structure involved based on the ammended definition of the word "structure" recognized by a few states including Virginia.

In Virginia the governing code is the 2003 VUSBC which ammends and supersedes the 2003 IBC and all other referenced codes, is part of the Code of Virginia and can not be changed in any jurisdiction or local in the state. The definition of (Structure) "That which is built or constructed" has been deleted for good reason in the VUSBC statewide and the following clear definition added:

Structure: "An assembly of materials forming a construction for occupancy or use including stadiums, gospel and circus tents, reviewing stands, platforms, stagings,observation towers, radio towers, water tanks, storage tanks (underground and aboveground), trestles, piers, wharves, swimming pools, amusement devices, storage bins and other structures of this general nature but excluding water wells. The word "structure" shall be construed as followed by the words "or part or parts there of" unless the context clearly requires a different meaning."

We are not all convinced that driving ground rods or a grounding electrode system at each pedestal would help or is the ultimate temporary solution either so any ideas you may have on this subject that would help make the system safe in the interim would be appreciated.

We are removing all 50A, 2 pole breakers and replacing them with a max. 30 amp
2 pole or 30A and 20 amp single pole breaker to correct the overload of circuits,
overcurrent protection and wire size issues. We will have to deal with the newer
RV's requiring 120/240V service on a case to case basis.

We could use the advise and help of the most respected peers in the electrical industry to make our community safe. We are working towards the goal of correcting the mistakes of our past that are coming back to haunt us now.


Respectfully:
Pat Markham
Co-Chairman Electrical Committee
River Ridge Association
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Sounds like you need to just start over again. Doesn't seem like you have much to work with there considering the new loads and how the system has been cobbled over the years. If you show a good plan of action to an insurance company, and a schedule that you intend to keep to assure compliance with their "recommendations", they'll normally work with you and not drop your coverage. Maybe pick the worst of the 32 systems to re-do first, for instance.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
It seems the real debate is whether there needs to be separate neutrals and EGC's. I read the entire OP, and despite the "single structure" decision, I'd still say "no" to the separate EGC; I don't see the advantage.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before.
 

cschmid

Senior Member
Now I would like to clarify this dilemma..you want ideas from us on how to implement a temporary grounding solution for a non grounded system??and you say running a wire is out of the question due to the fact there is approx. 27 miles of wire to run??how big is this development in acres and can you give use a better picture of the lay out?? you could use gfci breakers at each site and label them no equipment ground that would provide better personal protection but would not solve the equipment ground issue..What is your insurance carriers biggest issue with this installation during the upgrade period??interesting situation and for one I am glad it is yours but if I can help I will..How and what is your water system constructed in??
 

pmarkham7

Member
The water system is all PVC. If you go to the River Ridge site home page and click on the map it will give you a better picture of the layout and size of the development. The existing pedestals are all set past the mid point of each lot which increased the wire runs 75-125 feet per pedestal. The insurance companies biggest issue is not wanting to have to settle on another claim due to the problems I have described.




http://riverridgeassoc.com/


http://www.golfworldmap.com/usa/virginia/riverridge/
 

cschmid

Senior Member
okay I feel little dumb now..after rereading your post you have the water lines listed..

I think there is something you can do but I cannot tell you how cost effective it will be..You could take and add some pad mounted transformers to boost your power..this will help with the high voltage swings you get on the 800ft runs which in return could cut your claims..a brown out on that distance could swing seriously low to damage equipement..this would also give you another point to ground at..You would need to have an engineer assess your needs and this may help you in a temporary situation..Now lets see if this generates some response..
 
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LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
Isn't there any way to get the utility in there to install an adequate transmission & distribution system? Tell them "we're limiting all lots to a 20a 120v circuit. If you'd rather have 200+ customers buying more power from you, YOU upgrade the system."
 

pmarkham7

Member
The power company (MEC) has agreed to upgrade their transmission lines and provide the necessary transformers we will need for our upgrades. The upgrades to the EDS are our responsibility. MEC will not help or contribute in any way to our portion of the system. The association is only permitted to add a $1.00 service charge to each bill for the metered monthly electrical usage to each lot. MEC does not want to take over the EDS even if we do the upgrades. It is a simple matter of ecomnomics. Why would they want to spend millions of dollars upgrading a system for 950 lots when they are collecting the same amount for reading 32 meters? They don't and will not and have said so on many occasions.
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
IMO: This should not be handled as a minor job. This is a major undertaking which will require coordination between many entities. You need to hire an engineer, experienced in underground and overhead distribution systems, that can put together a scope of work, realistic schedule, and budget. The plan may require a 2 phase approach, with the first phase being identification of options; pros and cons to each option, budetary costs for each option (+/- 25% accuracy). Once an option is selected then the 2nd phase would be the SSB (Scope, schedule, and budget (+/- 15% accuracy) and design documents. Then the project should be bid out to Contractors. Make sure you don't base the bid analysis solely on cost. It should be based on company experience, equipment and labor resources available, and what exceptions they took to the design documents, bonding capacity, etc.

Award contract based on the final adjusted contract price from the bid analysis. I would not recommend trying to do this without the help of an experienced professional.
 

dbuckley

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
It seems the real debate is whether there needs to be separate neutrals and EGC's. I read the entire OP, and despite the "single structure" decision, I'd still say "no" to the separate EGC; I don't see the advantage.

The advantage is the removal of potential gradients between ground points due to voltage drop along the neutral.
 
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