another 2008 code challange

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cschmid

cschmid

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Normally NEC code is implemented without challange in MN..but this year they are saying that the 2008 does not comply with Minnesota Statute 16B.59 of providing "reasonable health and safety" at the "least possible cost."

So when does it become a reasonable cost when the manufacturer has all the bugs worked out and how long do you put off the adoption..Is it going to be more reasonable next year or the year after or do these organizations think it will some how disappear..I don't see the benefit of prolonging the inevitable..



http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20080411mn.cfm

http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/...ota_attachment-MN Letter to Board of Elec.pdf
 
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cschmid said:
I don't see the benefit of prolonging the inevitable..http://
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I have spent most of my like trying to prolong the inevitable. If I can I'm going to prolong it a few more years.

There are only two things that are inevitable. Death & taxes. Some people think it just may be possible to beat death. :D :D
 
growler said:
I have spent most of my like trying to prolong the inevitable. If I can I'm going to prolong it a few more years.

There are only two things that are inevitable. Death & taxes. Some people think it just may be possible to beat death. :D :D
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capnemug.jpg


He tried to beat taxes and lost.:D
 
growler said:
I have spent most of my like trying to prolong the inevitable. If I can I'm going to prolong it a few more years.

There are only two things that are inevitable. Death & taxes. Some people think it just may be possible to beat death. :D :D
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Wrong OM.

Ministers don't have to pay taxes and count on everlasting life. I even know an electrician that has managed to do just that. So far, anyway!
 
It is nice to see someone stand up to those prima donnas. Edit to say dont forget the almighty GASOLINE/DIESEL TAX!!!
 
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quogueelectric said:
It is nice to see someone stand up to those prima donnas. Edit to say dont forget the almighty GASOLINE/DIESEL TAX!!!
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Yeah i know what you mean but you should see how much percentage the European charage for the fuel taxes heck alot more than what we will pay for fuel taxes


as i am typing now my fuel price in nordest wisconsin area gas 3.34/gallon [ 0.87/litre] Diesel fuel {ULSD} 4.04/gallon [1.06/litre]

i did check the gas price in France the unleaded now at 1.32/litre [5.01/gal] and diesel fuel at 1.17/litre[ 4.44/ gal]

so it is not very far diffrence now and it is closing in gap but heard some rumors but not confirmed but the UK gas is 6 buck a gallon or more.

Merci,Marc
 
K8MHZ said:
Wrong OM.

Ministers don't have to pay taxes and count on everlasting life. I even know an electrician that has managed to do just that. So far, anyway!
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Minister do have to pay taxes, it's the church that has tax exempt status.

As far as ministers having everlasting life, I'll believe it when I see it, grave yards are full of ministers and so are prisons.

As far as the 2008 NEC being inevitable, well, unless a state chooses to adopt the NEC there is nothing anyone can do about it. Some states ( at least one ) are still useing the 1993 NEC.
 
weressl said:
Electricians are the closest human beings to God.

They have the power of Light and Darkness,,,,,,,,:grin:
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In the beginning, God said "Let there be light" and Adam's Electric was formed that very instant. :D
 
The truth will set you free...

The truth will set you free...

If anyone looked at the letter sent by BAM to the Minnesota electrical board you might have noticed their reference to the Governor of Ohio requiring that the 2008 NEC is rescinded until 2009. That is simply a lie. The Governor of Ohio signed an emergency (what emergency is there?) order which rescinded the 2008 NEC for 1, 2 and 3 family dwellings only for a 90 day period. He did this on March 31st so the order will run out on June 29th. I just love it when people distort the truth.

The truth in Ohio is that the Ohio Board of Building Standards will have a public hearing on May 2nd in Reynoldsburg (just East of Columbus) on a proposed rule to extend the rescission of the 2008 NEC.

Since the signing of this emergency order here in Ohio our issuance of permits for 1, 2 and 3 family dwelings has went through the roof!! Now thats a big fat lie just like the one contained in BAM's letter.

I hope the Homebuilders have realized their so called financial relief... I guess the homeowners in Ohio will pay that price in reduced safety.

Pete
 
pete m. said:
I hope the Homebuilders have realized their so called financial relief... I guess the homeowners in Ohio will pay that price in reduced safety.
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Pete, take a look at this post. I can't agree with your comment that there will be reduced safety. Also, the Ohio IAEI has come up with the costs for the additional safety but it is based on the very minimum number of circuits. The reality is that homeowners normally enjoy a multitude of "extra" circuits that the Code does not mandate. Custom built homes will cost $1,000 to $2,000 more just for the AFCIs that have to be installed, not the figure that they came up with. :rolleyes:
 
I have mixed feelings about the AFCI's. But I think that the weather resistant rec outside and requireing an outside rec on a deck or porch 20 sq ft or more is a good idea. Most people want rec on their decks anyway. I think that either of these two changes is not going to add much to the cost of a home.


Charlie what is you take on the TR rec ?
 
cschmid said:
. . . they are saying that the 2008 does not comply with Minnesota Statute 16B.59 of providing "reasonable health and safety" at the "least possible cost."
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Conrad,

This Minnesota State Statute is interesting. I think there are two distinct changes in the 2008 NEC that are, in my opinion, running afoul of this Statute.
  1. 210.12(B) -- The expansion of the area of coverage by AFCI and the unproven new combination AFCI. The trip mechanism of existing combination AFCIs is operated when an integrated circuit chip counting buffer exceeds a set threshold. This counter, and the sources of the incremental "counts" placed in it, are a secret, that is, they are the manufacturer's proprietary algorithms. The troubleshooting electrician is not permitted knowledge of the sophisticated analysis the AFCI has performed. The electrician, and the homeowner, must, therefore, assume the cost of testing Premises Wiring and Utilization Equipment in an attempt to isolate the source of the "trip", with the full realization that algorithms, themselves, are untestable. It is unreasonable that the information created in the AFCI is unavailable, thereby financially penalizing those working to find the AFCI indicated unsafe condition.
  2. 210.8(A)(2) & (5) now require sump pumps and freezers to be GFI protected when such equipment is installed in Garage space, certain Accessory Buildings or Unfinished Basements. The homeowner will need to install power loss alarms, at a minimum, in an attempt to stave off property flood damage and/or food loss. The small amount of safety gained is not reasonable when one must install safety items to protect us from the operation of other safety items.
 
Charlie,
As you know there were more changes in the 2008 NEC that enhance safety other than AFCI's. The problem, if one doubts the ability or performance of an AFCI, is that Ohio is not looking at just "opting out" of the AFCI portion of the code, Ohio is looking at opting out of the '08 NEC altogether (at least for a while).

I just wonder where the Homebuilder's fight was in Ohio for the 2005 NEC for AFCI's? Where was the fight when the 2002 first made it mandatory? Where was the fight when the 1999 introduced the concept? It just seems really odd to me that now that the 2008 NEC has expanded the requirement it has become such a financial hardshipand further an "emergency" in our Governors eye's.

I agree that for a large custom home one could "design" a system that could drive the cost up considerably, but one could also design a house fitted with 24 carat gold luminaires and a receptacle on every vertical framing member in the house, etc, etc... the fact is the NEC is a minimum standard and on most production homes that I inspect you will not get any more than the minimum, electrically speaking, unless you are willing to pay for it.

Pete
 
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pete m. said:
It just seems really odd to me . . .
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The homebuilders didn't have much of an argument since the cost of just the bedroom circuits was minimal and the promised safety would be so great. Since the inclusive expansion is to a dubious and untested product, they are balking. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me.

pete m. said:
. . . fitted with 24 carat gold luminaires . . . unless you are willing to pay for it.
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The problem is that the 24 carat gold is being mandated and it is just plating. :rolleyes:
 
Charlie, Have you heard if Indiana is going to remove the AFCI requirements in the 2008NEC like they did with the 2005?
 
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