Another Irritation

[jmellc]

Last week, I used the last space of a panel to install a new circuit. Multi tier neutral bars. Of course, all previous neutrals & grounds were terminated starting in front & moving back. A 1 minute task became a 15 minute task with prying wires apart & moving all over to get to a screw on the rear bar, then snaking wire through to terminate it.

It is a simple thing to start at the back & work forward. When all is open, it takes barely a second longer to hit the rear. I have always taught that to my helpers & scolded any of them not doing it. I pointed it out to them any time I encountered having to fight it, so they could see the practical reason for it. It really bothers me that so many guys out there don't care enough to add small professional touches to their work. It costs no money & very little time in this case to do it right.

 

[George Stolz]

Yeah, that drives me nuts too. :rant:

 

[yankj]

It's hard to get good help.

 

[ptonsparky]

Don't know of any newer bars that way. You were lucky to have enough spares at all on.some of the older ones.

 

[kwired]

Don't know of any newer bars that way. You were lucky to have enough spares at all on.some of the older ones.

Come on, you have certainly seen QO panels recently. Usually only two levels on the neutral yet is still preferred to fill the lower level first.

 

[buzzbar]

Last week, I used the last space of a panel to install a new circuit. Multi tier neutral bars. Of course, all previous neutrals & grounds were terminated starting in front & moving back. A 1 minute task became a 15 minute task with prying wires apart & moving all over to get to a screw on the rear bar, then snaking wire through to terminate it.

It is a simple thing to start at the back & work forward. When all is open, it takes barely a second longer to hit the rear. I have always taught that to my helpers & scolded any of them not doing it. I pointed it out to them any time I encountered having to fight it, so they could see the practical reason for it. It really bothers me that so many guys out there don't care enough to add small professional touches to their work. It costs no money & very little time in this case to do it right.

I feel your pain! Other irritating things that I encounter:

• When bringing a new circuit into the top of a panel, the only knockouts available are in the back, behind the used up front knockouts.
• Replacing a receptacle or switch and finding wires so short that you have to use needle nose pliers to turn the wire nut.
• Having to work in a shallow 4/S box that is so packed, the cover plate feels spring-loaded when you remove it.
• Having to work in a 4/S box with multiple extension rings on it. I think the record that I've seen is 4 extension rings.
• Having to install a new circuit in a packed panel. But if you twin things up, you can make it work. But in the process, you have to rearrange various circuits, making sure that things stay on the correct phase.

Anyone else want to add to the irritation list?

 

[ptonsparky]

Come on, you have certainly seen QO panels recently. Usually only two levels on the neutral yet is still preferred to fill the lower level first.

As far as QO, we buy very few and I will have to say I install even less. But yes, use the lower first.

 

[ptonsparky]

Another pia?

Guys that still bundle every neutral together in a j-box. Doesn't matter to them if they are same circuits or not. Just talked to House guy that is still doing that and had no concept of why it was even remotely incorrect.:slaphead:

 

[iwire]

Anyone else want to add to the irritation list?

Forum lists of irritations.

 

[jaggedben]

• Having to install a new circuit in a packed panel. But if you twin things up, you can make it work. But in the process, you have to rearrange various circuits, making sure that things stay on the correct phase.

So what's a good way to avoid having to do this? (Or avoid making someone else have to do it?)

 

[Pizza]

- When someone sleeves UF in IMC pipe.
- Joe homeowner wiring his basement in UF cable.:?
- When I go to replace an existing light fixture and there is no box.:rant:
- In old flex systems when they ran everything through the light box.
- When a screw breaks off in a device box and you can't get it out of the tapped hole.
- Trying to cram a dimmer switch in an old device box.
- When a homeowner wants an outlet moved to the other side of the stud.:thumbsup:

 

[jmellc]

- When someone sleeves UF in IMC pipe.
- Joe homeowner wiring his basement in UF cable.:?
- When I go to replace an existing light fixture and there is no box.:rant:
- In old flex systems when they ran everything through the light box.
- When a screw breaks off in a device box and you can't get it out of the tapped hole.
- Trying to cram a dimmer switch in an old device box.
- When a homeowner wants an outlet moved to the other side of the stud.:thumbsup:

Yes, I had the issue of no light boxes on this job too. I knew I would. Any that had boxes were the old round ones with clamps that tighten from OUTSIDE the box. Others had the hickey stud screwed straight to the ceiling with k/t wiring down through the holes.

Agreed too, about wiring to the light box. I was taught this method in 70's but many EC's were moving away from it too, so I didn't get addicted to it. Troubleshooting is much easier when taking down lights is not a major part of it. I only do it now if there is no practical way to hit switch first, or if box fill messes me up.

I usually have good luck drilling broken screws.

Dimmers in old boxes indeed are a pain. So are GFI's.

 

[buzzbar]

[/LIST]So what's a good way to avoid having to do this? (Or avoid making someone else have to do it?)

Sometimes, there are ways to avoid it, but it's still a pain in the ass. But, I would say that installing a panel large enough to add some future circuits would be a good start.

 

[buzzbar]

Forum lists of irritations.

Ring the sarcasm bell!

 

[hurk27]

I have one, using all the neutral bar screws except the ones under the long AF breakers, although not a biggie but why not use up the screws that will not be accessible after all the AF breakers are installed, although we haven't been required to install AF breakers in a while Here in Indiana, but I still run into a few that was installed under the 1999 requirement just before the state removed 210.12.

 

[kwired]

I have one, using all the neutral bar screws except the ones under the long AF breakers, although not a biggie but why not use up the screws that will not be accessible after all the AF breakers are installed, although we haven't been required to install AF breakers in a while Here in Indiana, but I still run into a few that was installed under the 1999 requirement just before the state removed 210.12.

A good start for that one would be to put the neutral for the AF breaker under the breaker it supplies, then snap in the breaker.

 

[jmellc]

I have one, using all the neutral bar screws except the ones under the long AF breakers, although not a biggie but why not use up the screws that will not be accessible after all the AF breakers are installed, although we haven't been required to install AF breakers in a while Here in Indiana, but I still run into a few that was installed under the 1999 requirement just before the state removed 210.12.

Yes, I hate that too. We run into enough unavoidable troubles without idiots purposely creating more obstacles.

 

[ptonsparky]

Come on, you have certainly seen QO panels recently. ....

I have been deflowered. Worked on a SQD Friday because my help poked a hole in his hand the previous day. Ref: Force or Suggest in Safety

 

[weressl]

Last week, I used the last space of a panel to install a new circuit. Multi tier neutral bars. Of course, all previous neutrals & grounds were terminated starting in front & moving back. A 1 minute task became a 15 minute task with prying wires apart & moving all over to get to a screw on the rear bar, then snaking wire through to terminate it.

It is a simple thing to start at the back & work forward. When all is open, it takes barely a second longer to hit the rear. I have always taught that to my helpers & scolded any of them not doing it. I pointed it out to them any time I encountered having to fight it, so they could see the practical reason for it. It really bothers me that so many guys out there don't care enough to add small professional touches to their work. It costs no money & very little time in this case to do it right.

Perhaps you could contact the panel manufacturers to include that in their next revision of the panels installation instructions.

 

[jmellc]

Perhaps you could contact the panel manufacturers to include that in their next revision of the panels installation instructions.

I could hear them laughing right now at getting such a suggestion.