another poco responsibility thread. . .

[brantmacga]

here's another one. . .

on the last one, i just told the customer i thought it was wrong, and that there was nothing i could do about it, but this one i'm pretty upset about and i'll explain that at the end. . .



i'm working on an old warehouse in my hometown that a business just took over; it was an existing business that moved their operation here from a nearby city.

after moving all their equipment in, they had the city-owned utility connect services; when they started everything up, all of their electric motor-driven equipment, electronics, and most of the fluorescent lighting went up in smoke, according to the owner.


they called the utility; the owner was told that the transformer "lost a leg". it was replaced.

the owner questioned the poco about who was responsible for replacing thousands of dollars worth of equipment; the poco said the owner should have gotten a qualified electrician to verify the voltage was correct before starting anything up.

have all the linemen i've witnessed connecting a service checked the voltage just for their own amusement, or is that SOP?

this utility has 3 employees; the "head electrician" as they call him, and his two linemen. (all major linework is performed by sub-contractors)

the owner said the "head electrician" got extremely rude when questioning about the replacement of his equipment; that's not unusual, just his everyday attitude.

what say you?


_______________________

(optional reading below)

the reason i'm upset about this:

this is the town i grew up in and watched every manufacturing plant we had move to mexico in the mid-90's. in a town of 5k people, we lost almost 2k jobs. we just lost an electronics manufacturer who made parts for one of the big 3 auto companies.

the city claims to be doing everything they can to lure new businesses here, and to me this sets the wrong tone on how they are going to deal with the businesses they finally get to move in here.

i was excited to learn of this business moving here, but now the owner isn't very happy about it at the moment seeing how he's spent thousands already to replace equipment, and has a few thousand more dollars to go before i get done with my work. a lot of what i'll be doing is replacing things that should be working fine, but were damaged by the utility.

so i'm upset because i have a direct interest in seeing that these situations get handled properly, because i want them to be able to bring new companies in and not worry about whether they're going to screw it up.

 

[augie47]

unsure if there is a SOP, but locally, POCO always turns off the main and check voltages or observe and electrican as he check voltages before they leave.

 

[brantmacga]

unsure if there is a SOP, but locally, POCO always turns off the main and check voltages or observe and electrican as he check voltages before they leave.

i'm trying to remember if i've ever seen this particular utility check voltages on service connections. i can't really say that i have.

i know every job i've done w/ REA and GA Power they do; with these guys its almost like they hook it up and just hope it works like its supposed to.

 

[charlietuna]

All states have utiliies commisions that they must answer to. This company has a responsibility to install protective devices to sensitive equipment--lets face it--utilities lose a phase every once in a while. I doubt they are going to win anything but it might be worth a try. Now, if the utility provide the wrong voltage, that would be a different situation. Like we had a utility where the lineworkers went on strike and management workers came in and wired the high leg on a delta service to the wrong leg on a large shopping center! That burnt one half of the ballasts up before they realized. And the grand opening was just before Thanksgiving -- we worked around the clock changing ballasts...

 

[brantmacga]

All states have utiliies commisions that they must answer to. This company has a responsibility to install protective devices to sensitive equipment--lets face it--utilities lose a phase every once in a while. I doubt they are going to win anything but it might be worth a try. Now, if the utility provide the wrong voltage, that would be a different situation. Like we had a utility where the lineworkers went on strike and management workers came in and wired the high leg on a delta service to the wrong leg on a large shopping center! That burnt one half of the ballasts up before they realized. And the grand opening was just before Thanksgiving -- we worked around the clock changing ballasts...

i think the difference in this situation charlie is that from what i gather, this was an existing condition when the poco connected the service.

a simple voltage check on their end would've caught it.

at least that's what i have determined from the facts i've been given.

i realize things happen, but this one seemed very preventable. i probably wouldn't question it, but i've been involved with cases where the power company owned up to it and reimbursed the customer for damaged equipment. i guess you could say that set a precedent in my mind that if they are responsible, they fix it.

its no different from the work a contractor does; i i screw up and damage something, i have to fix it.

 

[SEO]

I got a call on a residence from the owner that said equipment was popping and burning all over. What I discovered was that a storm knocked some primary lines down and when the power company made the repair they flip flopped a neutral and a phase. The power company did pay for the damages.

 

[sparky76]

Here in my utiilty territory (SDGE) the lineman will
ALWAYS check voltage before they allow us to flip the main (residential or commercial) whether its an existing upgrade or a new service.

 

[charlietuna]

OK-I get the picture. I would contact the state public utility commission and file a complaint--and explain the entire situation along with documented repair billings.

 

[fisherelectric]

Tell him to call a lawyer. And his insurance agent.

 

[charlie]

. . . the owner questioned the poco about who was responsible for replacing thousands of dollars worth of equipment; the poco said the owner should have gotten a qualified electrician to verify the voltage was correct before starting anything up. . .

If the owner did not have a qualified electrician, I agree with the serving electric utility. However, how do you do work on this scale without having qualified people on board?

1. . . . have utility commissions that they must answer to.
2. . . . company has a responsibility to install protective devices to sensitive equipment . . .
3. . . . if the utility provide the wrong voltage, that would be a different situation. . .

1. I understand that this is a municipal utility. If that is true, they answer only to the taxpayers.
2. Correct in most cases
3. No kidding, the serving electric utility must deliver the contracted voltage.

Tell him to call a lawyer. And his insurance agent.

I agree on both counts. :smile:

 

[Cow]

Your utility guys sound lazy to me. Ours always check voltage when powering up a service.

Tell him to call a lawyer. And his insurance agent.

I'm with this guy.:smile:

 

[Fulthrotl]

after moving all their equipment in, they had the city-owned utility connect services; when they started everything up, all of their electric motor-driven equipment, electronics, and most of the fluorescent lighting went up in smoke, according to the owner.

in californicate, the land of the free, and the home of 2 bezillion lawyers,
the puc regulations is nominal voltage +- 5%.

anything outside that leaves the poco liable for damages.

sounds like your supply voltage was outside 5%. i bet your state's puc
has something written down somewhere, and it would be worth the
time to find out chapter and verse.

is the poco liable for damages, including lost productivity? i'd say yes,
but i'm not the judge..... i just act like it....


randy

 

[peter d]

in californicate, the land of the free, and the home of 2 bezillion lawyers,
the puc regulations is nominal voltage +- 5%.

I'll bet that keeps the SDG&E, SCE, PGE and others on their toes.

 

[quogueelectric]

The fact that so much damage occured tells me that the owner of the building did not place any startup money into his price for construction. The fact is that after the first motor smoked there was no qualified persons either on site or called in. The fact is that if the owner energized each piece of equipment on his own and watched them burn up every time that he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Trust me this smells of a job I did once where I didnt know there was a high leg and the owner pluged in every tool in his shop until they were all smoked. It was a very expensive lesson for me but I have to give some responsibility to the owner trying to micromanage a job.

 

[charlie]

. . . i bet your state's puc
has something written down somewhere, and it would be worth the
time to find out chapter and verse. . .

I understand that this is a municipal utility. If that is true, they answer only to the taxpayers. :smile:

 

[growler]

after moving all their equipment in, they had the city-owned utility connect services; when they started everything up, all of their electric motor-driven equipment, electronics, and most of the fluorescent lighting went up in smoke, according to the owner.


they called the utility; the owner was told that the transformer " lost a leg". it was replaced.

Flourescent lighting going up in smoke does not sound like a missing leg to me, it sounds more like a missing neutral causing a power surge.

You didn't say if these are single phase or three phase motors. Losing a leg can ( if motors are not protected ) can cause single phasing on three phase motors but it wouldn't damage single phase equipment. They really should have noticed this. If these are small single phase motors then losing a phase won't do any damage, they just want work until power is restored.

If they did cause a power surge then the utility can be held responsible. I would talk to the power company engineers and see what's going on. I can't see any way that losing a leg would effect those lights but then I wouldn't trust a business owner to tell the truth either. If you can find out what repairs were actually done this will give you more information.

 

[Sparky555]

The fact that so much damage occured tells me that the owner of the building did not place any startup money into his price for construction. The fact is that after the first motor smoked there was no qualified persons either on site or called in. The fact is that if the owner energized each piece of equipment on his own and watched them burn up every time that he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Trust me this smells of a job I did once where I didnt know there was a high leg and the owner pluged in every tool in his shop until they were all smoked. It was a very expensive lesson for me but I have to give some responsibility to the owner trying to micromanage a job.

It would make sense to stop powering equipment after 2 or 3 burned up. I'm with Growler, with a lost neutral the voltage varies with the load.

Losing a neutral is not terribly uncommon and the damage usually is paid by the owner not the utility.

 

[charlie]

. . . Losing a neutral is not terribly uncommon and the damage usually is paid by the owner not the utility.

That depends on whether or not the utility knew about the problem. If they have been notified and did nothing or said it was the customer's problem and it was their open or loose neutral, they should honor the claim. Again, documentation is imperative, do not depend on the electric utility to keep good records; however, most do keep good records.

 

[growler]

the owner said the "head electrician" got extremely rude when questioning about the replacement of his equipment; that's not unusual, just his everyday attitude.

Why would the owner of a business be talking to the head electrician about the replacement of equipment? He wouldn't be authorized to do any of that. All the power companies that I have delt with have a claims department to handle this sort of thing. You file a claim and they send someone out to investigate the claim ( the one's I have been envolved with they send out an engineer). If they accept responsibility then it's just a question of how much equipment was really damaged and what the repair cost is going to be. They won't give a customer $1000 for a ten years old 19" TV just because the customer wishes to replace it with a big screen.

They are not just going to take a customer's word for it that they spend thousands of dollars to repair damaged equipment. They needed to have gotten someone out to write up a damage report and filed a claim right away.