Ansul system

liquidtite

Senior Member
When Ansul is engaged do your lights under the hood have to turn off

with the outlets and makeup air ?

and can you have two seperate switches to turn on makeup air

and hood exhaust whenansul is not engaged or do you have to turn off makeup air and exhaust under one switch
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
...and can you have two seperate switches to turn on makeup air

and hood exhaust when ansul is not engaged or do you have to turn off makeup air and exhaust under one switch
Under normal operation the makeup air must turn on automatically whenever the exhaust is on. Two independent switches will not pass. You can have a switch that turns the exhaust off while leaving makeup air on, but I do not know why you would want to do that.
 

ActionDave

Moderator
Staff member
When Ansul is engaged do your lights under the hood have to turn off

with the outlets and makeup air ?

and can you have two seperate switches to turn on makeup air

and hood exhaust whenansul is not engaged or do you have to turn off makeup air and exhaust under one switch
I don't know what you have in mind and I have not done many Ansul systems but the ones I worked on we used contactors to control the fans and tie them to the Ansul accordingly.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
I went through this recently and had to find out what the EXACT operation was the hard way. This is what I have :
  • One wall switch turns on both the exhaust and make-up air fans
  • The thermostat inside the exhaust hood MUST be wired in parallel with the exhaust switch (reason being - if someone forgets to switch on the exhaust fan on the thermostat will activate at a specific temperature
  • A separate light switch can be used to turn on/off the light
Relay logic for manual Ansul operation
  • Exhaust fan turns on (irrespective of whether it was already on or not)
  • Make-up air shuts off
  • Power to light is interrupted
  • If the cooking equipment is gas, a gas solenoid shuts the gas off
  • If an electric range/oven is used that has to be shut down via a shunt trip breaker
  • Fire alarm system is activated
In some cases there are enough contacts in the Ansul system panel to accomplish some of these listed items. If not, you have to build and design your own relay logic.
 

kwired

Electron manager
I went through this recently and had to find out what the EXACT operation was the hard way. This is what I have :
  • One wall switch turns on both the exhaust and make-up air fans
  • The thermostat inside the exhaust hood MUST be wired in parallel with the exhaust switch (reason being - if someone forgets to switch on the exhaust fan on the thermostat will activate at a specific temperature
  • A separate light switch can be used to turn on/off the light
Relay logic for manual Ansul operation
  • Exhaust fan turns on (irrespective of whether it was already on or not)
  • Make-up air shuts off
  • Power to light is interrupted
  • If the cooking equipment is gas, a gas solenoid shuts the gas off
  • If an electric range/oven is used that has to be shut down via a shunt trip breaker
  • Fire alarm system is activated
In some cases there are enough contacts in the Ansul system panel to accomplish some of these listed items. If not, you have to build and design your own relay logic.
My main objection to what you mentioned is the thermostat inside the exhaust hood being there for the purpose of turning on the fan if the user forgets. If you do that, the fan would cycle because once you turn it on the temperature will begin to fall and the thermostat would open again.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
When Ansul is engaged do your lights under the hood have to turn off with the outlets and makeup air ?

And can you have two separate switches to turn on makeup air and hood exhaust when ansul is not engaged?
Or do you have to turn off makeup air and exhaust under one switch
All power and fuel sources under the hood have to turn off upon activation of the Ansul. This includes lighting.

And can you have two separate switches to turn on makeup air and hood exhaust when ansul is not engaged?
Or do you have to turn off makeup air and exhaust under one switch
As GoldDigger said, if you turn on exhaust, the makeup air has to come on. That's called "balanced air" and it's found in the mechanical code. The code makes reference to the requirement for makeup air when exhaust is on, so they have to be switched such that when you turn on exhaust, the makeup comes on at the same time. Since the intent of the code is "balanced air" I don't think you should be able to manually turn on the makeup air without the exhaust running (so on that part I disagree with GoldDigger).

Regardless of how you install your manual controls, activation of the Ansul must automatically nuke the makeup air and power the exhaust.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
All power and fuel sources under the hood have to turn off upon activation of the Ansul. This includes lighting.
This depends on which code your area operates under.

Some codes require all power sources to be killed while other codes only require the source of power for the cooking equipment.


I have been lucky, I have not had to hand fabricate a system in a long time. We install a lot of systems but our customers purchase factory built control panels matched to the hood and fans to run them so all we have to do is land the wiring on the well marked terminals.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
This depends on which code your area operates under.

Some codes require all power sources to be killed while other codes only require the source of power for the cooking equipment.


I have been lucky, I have not had to hand fabricate a system in a long time. We install a lot of systems but our customers purchase factory built control panels matched to the hood and fans to run them so all we have to do is land the wiring on the well marked terminals.
And he's in NYC. Thank you for pointing that out.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
My main objection to what you mentioned is the thermostat inside the exhaust hood being there for the purpose of turning on the fan if the user forgets. If you do that, the fan would cycle because once you turn it on the temperature will begin to fall and the thermostat would open again.
Wouldn't that be OK if you're not cooking anything on the range ? During my test I purposely left the fan switch off and turned on all the burners. When the temp got to say 120 degrees the fan and MU-air came on. When it cooled down they went off. If you remember to turn on the switch the fans will come on. If you forget to turn them off the fans will stay on. Do you know any other reason for the T-stat ?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
My main objection to what you mentioned is the thermostat inside the exhaust hood being there for the purpose of turning on the fan if the user forgets. If you do that, the fan would cycle because once you turn it on the temperature will begin to fall and the thermostat would open again.
The answer to that is "too bad". It's what the code (IBC) requires. I would hope that after a couple of cycles the kitchen crew would get a clue, not to mention all the grease vapor filling the work space, but you never know. :cool:
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
I went through this recently and had to find out what the EXACT operation was the hard way. This is what I have :
  • One wall switch turns on both the exhaust and make-up air fans
  • The thermostat inside the exhaust hood MUST be wired in parallel with the exhaust switch (reason being - if someone forgets to switch on the exhaust fan on the thermostat will activate at a specific temperature
  • A separate light switch can be used to turn on/off the light
Relay logic for manual Ansul operation
  • Exhaust fan turns on (irrespective of whether it was already on or not)
  • Make-up air shuts off
  • Power to light is interrupted
  • If the cooking equipment is gas, a gas solenoid shuts the gas off
  • If an electric range/oven is used that has to be shut down via a shunt trip breaker
  • Fire alarm system is activated
In some cases there are enough contacts in the Ansul system panel to accomplish some of these listed items. If not, you have to build and design your own relay logic.
This pretty much nails it. Ansul systems are capable of handling four (4) form "C" relays. Possible modifications are:

Ansul (and other systems) are capable of mechanically shutting down the gas. This saves one relay.
Ansul doesn't usually take care of the auto-on for the exhaust. One more relay.
If you can get the lights on a subpanel with the electric appliances and underhood outlets you can kill them all at the same time. Shunt trip or contactor, although I prefer a contactor.
 

kwired

Electron manager
The answer to that is "too bad". It's what the code (IBC) requires. I would hope that after a couple of cycles the kitchen crew would get a clue, not to mention all the grease vapor filling the work space, but you never know. :cool:
I've been on a few service calls where the exhaust fan is not working - they notice when the place fills with cooking vapors.

Grease? I've been in places with exhaust hoods that still have grease on about every surface imaginable, except for recently washed dishes or the newest items in the pantry.
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
This is how I did it it passed but not Shure if it's bc he didn't check everything under a fine took comb.
. For the lights I just feed with a switch not having them drop out inspector was fine with that.

.For the outlets I Feed (a)micro switchs common from panel ,the nc leg off micro switch I feed

The control terminal on a (a)contactor . All the loads on the contactor go to the outlets under the hood .

so when Ansul is engaged micro switch opens up the contactor is not being feed and the coil opens up,And power under hood is off.

. For hood exhaust I feed a swichh on the wall with steady power ,the switch leg I landed

on the control terminal of a contactor all the loads for that contactor go to the hood exhausts ,

I also landed temperature censors swich legs on control terminal

so the exhaust can be turned on with switch and be turned on by censors.

when Ansul is engaged hood exhausts stay on .


. To be able to turn makeup air on and off with exhausts , and also have it drop out

when Ansul system is activated but living hood exhausts on.

I feed the common of (b)micro switch from the switch leg of the switch that goes to the controll terminal on the exhaust contactor.

The nc leg of the (b) micro switch feeds the makeup air contactor that all the loads go to the makeup air.

so you can turn on both hood exhaust and make up air with one switch

and when Ansul system is activated makeup air drops out bc its feed from micro switch .


I'm happywith design but what happens if Ansul is activated and the wall
switch is off the hood exhaust will be on bc of the censors but if those

censors go bad then the system could
fail.

sorry if what I wrote was confusing to read or my grammar is off

writing from iPhone .

This was my first Ansul I did and their were no plans on it I'm surprised I passed .

.all contractors are seperate from each other outlets,hood exhausts, makeup air each have their own contactor
 

goldstar

Senior Member
I'm happywith design but what happens if Ansul is activated and the wall switch is off the hood exhaust will be on bc of the censors but if those censors go bad then the system could fail.
When that Ansul is dumped the exhaust has to come on - no matter what. Did they perform an air test with balloons on the discharge pipe ? Did the inspector(s) check the operation of the system in its entirety ? Did they require you to wire the hood T-stat into the design of the system? Did they check to insure that the MU air fan actually shut down ? Did the gas solenoid shut off ?

I'm not looking to bust your chops, just trying to find out how qualified the inspectors were. Many years ago when I worked in NYC it took a fire inspector less than 20 minutes to inspect a hospital that was an entire city block long and wide and 6 stories high. Not even I could verify that all the aux. functions activated properly (I.e. Fan shut down, magnetic door closures, etc.). I knew the relays pulled in but I didn't go to every location and verify. Thankfully, I wasn't the one who did the field wiring, just a tech working for the FA company.:cool:
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
The answer to that is "too bad". It's what the code (IBC) requires. I would hope that after a couple of cycles the kitchen crew would get a clue, not to mention all the grease vapor filling the work space, but you never know. :cool:
Yes they did ballon test

yes gas turned off that was done internally

the exhaust stays on when switch is on

and when switch is off bc of the temp sensors

and make up air dropped

i listed how I wired system above

thanks for ure time
 

kwired

Electron manager
When that Ansul is dumped the exhaust has to come on - no matter what. Did they perform an air test with balloons on the discharge pipe ? Did the inspector(s) check the operation of the system in its entirety ? Did they require you to wire the hood T-stat into the design of the system? Did they check to insure that the MU air fan actually shut down ? Did the gas solenoid shut off ?

I'm not looking to bust your chops, just trying to find out how qualified the inspectors were. Many years ago when I worked in NYC it took a fire inspector less than 20 minutes to inspect a hospital that was an entire city block long and wide and 6 stories high. Not even I could verify that all the aux. functions activated properly (I.e. Fan shut down, magnetic door closures, etc.). I knew the relays pulled in but I didn't go to every location and verify. Thankfully, I wasn't the one who did the field wiring, just a tech working for the FA company.:cool:
They must not be very qualified around here, I have never seen anyone do hardly any kind of testing on these systems. I also have hardly ever seen fans for make up air, some at least have free ventilation for make up air, others - you can tell there is little or no make up air just by how hard it is to break the seal when you enter the front door.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
They must not be very qualified around here, I have never seen anyone do hardly any kind of testing on these systems. I also have hardly ever seen fans for make up air, some at least have free ventilation for make up air, others - you can tell there is little or no make up air just by how hard it is to break the seal when you enter the front door.
Is Nebraska part of the US ?:p:p:p
 

kwired

Electron manager
Is Nebraska part of the US ?:p:p:p
Possibly not, that might be a good thing though:)

I will add that we don't like big brother telling us what to do for every move we make. But then when we don't like what the neighbor wants to do, we end up realizing there still needs to be rules, but what is fair rules is often being debated or tested.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
When that Ansul is dumped the exhaust has to come on - no matter what. Did they perform an air test with balloons on the discharge pipe ? Did the inspector(s) check the operation of the system in its entirety ? Did they require you to wire the hood T-stat into the design of the system? Did they check to insure that the MU air fan actually shut down ? Did the gas solenoid shut off ?

I'm not looking to bust your chops, just trying to find out how qualified the inspectors were. Many years ago when I worked in NYC it took a fire inspector less than 20 minutes to inspect a hospital that was an entire city block long and wide and 6 stories high. Not even I could verify that all the aux. functions activated properly (I.e. Fan shut down, magnetic door closures, etc.). I knew the relays pulled in but I didn't go to every location and verify. Thankfully, I wasn't the one who did the field wiring, just a tech working for the FA company.:cool:
If local amendments require. It's not in the IBC, IMC, or NFPA 17A. Since the codes do require the exhaust to be on when the cooking appliances are on, the exhaust should be operating at the time of system discharge. The suppression system is listed for exhaust on or off. We did have an instance where the thermostat in a fryer failed overnight and the high limit switch did as well so the fryer turned on and heated to auto-ignition. The system discharged even with the exhaust off since local heating went above the fusible link temperature. Since the system was properly linked to the fire alarm system the local FD was able to keep the incident contained to the hood.
 
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