I no this is a common question but i will get a service calls for work such as the fallowing for 3 ceiling fans for a old construction home all attic accessable for the fans. The customer wants to supply the fans and he wants to know what i will charge.He basically wants a ball park price but these types of jobs are hard to estimate without seeing the home,and type of fan. I told him "You will bee looking at a time and material project", and i told him my prices, warrenty and i tried to fudge a sales pitch in. How do you deal with customers like this? Basically i guess i'm looking for a sales pitch to insure i'm the E.C. that is right for him.
Answers for these types of customers
- Thread starter khixxx
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Answers for these types of customers
The idea behind a "ballpark" figure is to provide the best and worse case projection of what the job may cost depending on actual working conditions. If you have performed this or similar work before, you should be aware of the variables that may present themselves once the work begins. This way, you can provide a minimum and maximum potential cost to do the job.
You must be certain to explain to the customer that a final proposal or a written estimate will require an onsite inspection.
The idea behind a "ballpark" figure is to provide the best and worse case projection of what the job may cost depending on actual working conditions. If you have performed this or similar work before, you should be aware of the variables that may present themselves once the work begins. This way, you can provide a minimum and maximum potential cost to do the job.
You must be certain to explain to the customer that a final proposal or a written estimate will require an onsite inspection.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Answers for these types of customers
speaking as a customer, my fear is that the guy will understate the cost and then I will get a huge surprise when the bill get's totaled up.
best bet is to be upfront and tell them you really cannot give them a firm price becuase you just have no way of knowing what it might take. than give them a range of what it's likely to take. make sure that you can live with whatever you tell them is the high end of the range.
speaking as a customer, my fear is that the guy will understate the cost and then I will get a huge surprise when the bill get's totaled up.
best bet is to be upfront and tell them you really cannot give them a firm price becuase you just have no way of knowing what it might take. than give them a range of what it's likely to take. make sure that you can live with whatever you tell them is the high end of the range.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Answers for these types of customers
first i would explain this job will require two men ---- and that every attic is different-- and all fans are different and to be fair to him the best and only way to bid this job is on an hourly basis. i would not spend any additional time inspecting the job to sharpen your guess! because it would only be a "guess"! i would add money to my labor rate to make up for the lost money on the fan material mark up. some of these jobs can turn into a total nightmare --- where to get the feed and what load is already on this circuit? how to support the fan boxes properly? how long it will take to fish the wire to the outlets? missing parts in the fan boxes? how are they controlled? plus the guy at home depot probibly already gave this guy "the brother-n-law price" when he bought the fans!!!
first i would explain this job will require two men ---- and that every attic is different-- and all fans are different and to be fair to him the best and only way to bid this job is on an hourly basis. i would not spend any additional time inspecting the job to sharpen your guess! because it would only be a "guess"! i would add money to my labor rate to make up for the lost money on the fan material mark up. some of these jobs can turn into a total nightmare --- where to get the feed and what load is already on this circuit? how to support the fan boxes properly? how long it will take to fish the wire to the outlets? missing parts in the fan boxes? how are they controlled? plus the guy at home depot probibly already gave this guy "the brother-n-law price" when he bought the fans!!!
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Answers for these types of customers
Engineers sometimes get this type of ?give me a ballpark? request. I try not to upset a potential customer, but I don?t think it is appropriate to make predictions of that nature. What I would prefer to do is to give a written proposal, with a price included. And I can do that sight unseen! But the proposal includes a clear statement of the scope of work, a list of assumptions (or call them ?unknown conditions?), and my rate for additional services, should any of those unknown conditions result in a change in scope.
Using your situation as an example, I would state that I would supply two workers for a period of XXX hours, and the price would be $xxx. That price would include basic materials only (wire, connectors, etc.). I would state the following as assumptions
</font>
I might even suggest a minimum price just for showing up at the scene to do the job. Within a few minutes, you should be able to tell if there are serious problems, and to advise the owner of the probable increase in the cost of the job. If the owner then wants to cancel, then you give the owner a bill for "the minimum price." More to the point, you include this requirement in your standard proposal form letter, so that the owner can take it into consideration, before accepting your work proposal.
Engineers sometimes get this type of ?give me a ballpark? request. I try not to upset a potential customer, but I don?t think it is appropriate to make predictions of that nature. What I would prefer to do is to give a written proposal, with a price included. And I can do that sight unseen! But the proposal includes a clear statement of the scope of work, a list of assumptions (or call them ?unknown conditions?), and my rate for additional services, should any of those unknown conditions result in a change in scope.
Using your situation as an example, I would state that I would supply two workers for a period of XXX hours, and the price would be $xxx. That price would include basic materials only (wire, connectors, etc.). I would state the following as assumptions
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is assumed that the existing ceiling boxes are rated for fans. There would be an added cost of $yyy per box, if they have to be replaced or re-mounted.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is assumed that the attic area is readily accessible, is clear of obstructions (i.e., no storage items in the way), and is free of hazards. There would be an added cost of $zzz per hour, if access to the work area forces a delay in installation.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is assumed that the existing circuits, devices, and wiring are in compliance with current codes. There would be an added cost of $zzz per hour, if any portion of the circuits being modified require replacement or updating, in order to bring them up to current code requirements.</font>
I might even suggest a minimum price just for showing up at the scene to do the job. Within a few minutes, you should be able to tell if there are serious problems, and to advise the owner of the probable increase in the cost of the job. If the owner then wants to cancel, then you give the owner a bill for "the minimum price." More to the point, you include this requirement in your standard proposal form letter, so that the owner can take it into consideration, before accepting your work proposal.
speedypetey
Senior Member
- Location
- Hudson Valley, NY
Re: Answers for these types of customers
May I ask why???
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Answers for these types of customers
I know you can get into trouble ballparking, but a paddle fan with open attic above is one of those where you can't really screw up ballparking unless you're not all that famaliar with old work.
[ May 18, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
I don't mean to be a prick, but the original poster said the attic was all open. I do only old work and service work. I probably put in 50-75 paddle fans a year myself in existing homes, not including all the ones the employees install. It never takes two people. In fact, I'd be pretty upset with a guy that couldn't install a fan box, fish the cable, and mount the fan in ANY construction type by himself. Open attic, piece of cake. Just assume a requisite amount of romex, fan rated box, a bit of 2x4 and about 2 hours, and you'll be covered for an open attic install. Naturally, if the customer wants wall switches for the fan and so fourth, that price would have to wait until you see the house. I really don't know how you could be "surprised" installing a paddle fan on a ceiling with an open attic above. Sure, some are easier than others, but none so hard that it would normally take longer than a couple of hours or require more than one man.
I know you can get into trouble ballparking, but a paddle fan with open attic above is one of those where you can't really screw up ballparking unless you're not all that famaliar with old work.
[ May 18, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
Re: Answers for these types of customers
I ask the below questions:
I ask the customer where they are located? Sometimes I know what type of home they have by the area.
How many fans?
Is their a box, or light now or new location?
Is it on the 1st or 2nd fl?
What type of room is it (bedroom, family rm, etc)?
How tall is the cieling?
Is their atic access above that area?
How do they want to control the fan? Sometimes I don't go into all options until I'm their to avoid making it to complex for the customer to understand.
When would they want this done?
You just need to have some numbers in your head from past experiance. You allways can leave yourself a way out by saying "most fans we can do for". Some fans I should charge more because they are a PITA to assemble. 2 Hours labor sounds about right plus material. I get more for just 1 to cover unpaid time. I also figure a higher number for service call work because a lot of my time is waisted.
Tom
I ask the below questions:
I ask the customer where they are located? Sometimes I know what type of home they have by the area.
How many fans?
Is their a box, or light now or new location?
Is it on the 1st or 2nd fl?
What type of room is it (bedroom, family rm, etc)?
How tall is the cieling?
Is their atic access above that area?
How do they want to control the fan? Sometimes I don't go into all options until I'm their to avoid making it to complex for the customer to understand.
When would they want this done?
You just need to have some numbers in your head from past experiance. You allways can leave yourself a way out by saying "most fans we can do for". Some fans I should charge more because they are a PITA to assemble. 2 Hours labor sounds about right plus material. I get more for just 1 to cover unpaid time. I also figure a higher number for service call work because a lot of my time is waisted.
Tom
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: Answers for these types of customers
When I do this type of work I tell the customer strait up that it's a Time and Materials job.....every situation is different, but the average is a couple of hours. I also explain that a quote like this protects both parties so no one suffers a loss. A lot of times they go ahead and give me the job. Sometimes the go with the other EC who just gives a price and is willing to suffer any hidden losses.
One thing I ALWAYS add on to customer supplied materials..."NO WARRANTY ON CUSTOMER SUPPLIED FIXTURES." I only guarantee my workmanship and supplied items listed on the bill. I let them know strait up on the phone and on the bill that if the fan fails upon installation or down the road there will be an additional charge to re-hang a new fan. The reason being I have seen too many times over the years where customers buy some piece of junk off brand fan and it fails, sometime instantly. Then there is the times they buy one for $5 at a garage sale.
[ May 18, 2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: stud696981 ]
When I do this type of work I tell the customer strait up that it's a Time and Materials job.....every situation is different, but the average is a couple of hours. I also explain that a quote like this protects both parties so no one suffers a loss. A lot of times they go ahead and give me the job. Sometimes the go with the other EC who just gives a price and is willing to suffer any hidden losses.
One thing I ALWAYS add on to customer supplied materials..."NO WARRANTY ON CUSTOMER SUPPLIED FIXTURES." I only guarantee my workmanship and supplied items listed on the bill. I let them know strait up on the phone and on the bill that if the fan fails upon installation or down the road there will be an additional charge to re-hang a new fan. The reason being I have seen too many times over the years where customers buy some piece of junk off brand fan and it fails, sometime instantly. Then there is the times they buy one for $5 at a garage sale.
[ May 18, 2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: stud696981 ]
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: Answers for these types of customers
Speedypetey, you beat me to it with that question about why does this require 2 men?. I just got finished with a complete rewire of a house built in 1943, 3,500 sq ft, and 10 ceiling fans total. I did the job alone. I guess now I will have to go back to the owner and explain that the job is impossible to do with one man and could they please provide me with more money so I can reverse time and do the job with a helper also.
Speedypetey, you beat me to it with that question about why does this require 2 men?. I just got finished with a complete rewire of a house built in 1943, 3,500 sq ft, and 10 ceiling fans total. I did the job alone. I guess now I will have to go back to the owner and explain that the job is impossible to do with one man and could they please provide me with more money so I can reverse time and do the job with a helper also.
Re: Answers for these types of customers
Also, REPEAT, REPEAT that the price over the phone is a guess and actual costs can be higher.
Customer called, gave them the 2 hour per fan "ballpark" cost, plus extra for switch, etc.
Electrician got to house. It was a townhouse with 3 separate attics, with firewalls dividing the space. Fan was missing parts in new shrink wrapped box (big orange).
Customer had 4 fans, only told us one, then wanted specialty switches installed after electrician was cleaned up and ready to go.
Customer insisted our price was a firm number. After reasoning with his wife, we were paid our full due.
Biggest problem associated with the "ballpark" is the customers perception of what he has.
Also, REPEAT, REPEAT that the price over the phone is a guess and actual costs can be higher.
Customer called, gave them the 2 hour per fan "ballpark" cost, plus extra for switch, etc.
Electrician got to house. It was a townhouse with 3 separate attics, with firewalls dividing the space. Fan was missing parts in new shrink wrapped box (big orange).
Customer had 4 fans, only told us one, then wanted specialty switches installed after electrician was cleaned up and ready to go.
Customer insisted our price was a firm number. After reasoning with his wife, we were paid our full due.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Answers for these types of customers
Speedypetey, you beat me to it with that question about why does this require 2 men?. I just got finished with a complete rewire of a house built in 1943, 3,500 sq ft, and 10 ceiling fans total. I did the job alone.
Yeah I remember those days but when you get older you you can't do that any more...
-Hal
Speedypetey, you beat me to it with that question about why does this require 2 men?. I just got finished with a complete rewire of a house built in 1943, 3,500 sq ft, and 10 ceiling fans total. I did the job alone.
Yeah I remember those days but when you get older you you can't do that any more...
-Hal
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Answers for these types of customers
It might depend on your geographic area, but I have never run into a person so unreasonable. In my local market, most of the people are "country folk", and understand what ballpark means. If I worked in New York or Chicago, I might operate differently.
Re: Answers for these types of customers
mdshunk said:
You are a lucky person! There are some customers out there that have one objective--get something for free! We do a quick check on new customers by going to the state website and see if there is pending or past legal action (small claims) against them and who is the plaintiff. Almost all are clear. Those with "flags" become very special customers--COCs! Cash Only Customer
Here's my justification: I work hard and deserve to be paid just as my electricians do. The electrician will get paid--he's on an hourly wage. If I have to go to the bank and borrow money, he'll get paid. In the same light, I can't go to the bank and get myself paid. The non-paying customer is the one not writing my check and if he has a track record of doing so to others, I better protect myself or just not work for this guy!
[ May 19, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: tshea ]
mdshunk said:
Part of this is because the customer only "hears" what they want to hear. I say again REPEAT REPEAT until they understand.
You are a lucky person! There are some customers out there that have one objective--get something for free! We do a quick check on new customers by going to the state website and see if there is pending or past legal action (small claims) against them and who is the plaintiff. Almost all are clear. Those with "flags" become very special customers--COCs! Cash Only Customer
Here's my justification: I work hard and deserve to be paid just as my electricians do. The electrician will get paid--he's on an hourly wage. If I have to go to the bank and borrow money, he'll get paid. In the same light, I can't go to the bank and get myself paid. The non-paying customer is the one not writing my check and if he has a track record of doing so to others, I better protect myself or just not work for this guy!
[ May 19, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: tshea ]
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