Anyone Familiar with this Federal Pacific Panel Model?

[solarken]

A potential customer contacted me and send photos of their electrical distribution system at their home, in preparation for looking at adding solar. I will visit the site, but the photos and info the customer has provided are a bit confusing. The attached photo shows hos 100A Federal Pacific Main Panel, which looks like a Main Lug Only Panel to me, with the mains connected like I have not seen before. Has anyone seen something like this? Just want to be prepared when I go there. I asked the homeowner if there was a service disconnect upstream of this panel and he said no. When I questioned it again, because it doesn't make sense that there is not an OCPD between the meter and this main panel, he replied that there was a main breaker in this panel. I don't see one. He has mentioned that he has an electrician that he uses, but this site seems like a big mess, with this 100A panel and 4 other mini breaker boxes and a subpanel in the garage.

 

[Jolted]

Try googling a “split bus panel” There are technically six mains in this panel, with the top section being fed by one of them. Usually larger amperage load were used in the lower section, like a range, water heater, etc…

Back when larger breakers were expensive, this was used as a cost effective option to one large main breaker. This was made to comply with the six hand motion rule, and provide power distribution for the rest of the smaller circuits.

 

[hillbilly1]

Yeah, looks to be a split buss panel. Georgia Power supplied a lot of those many years ago. Usually a sticker with “Property of Georgia Power” on the ones down here. Made installing generators interesting!

 

[solarken]

Try googling a “split bus panel” There are technically six mains in this panel, with the top section being fed by one of them. Usually larger amperage load were used in the lower section, like a range, water heater, etc…

Back when larger breakers were expensive, this was used as a cost effective option to one large main breaker. This was made to comply with the six hand motion rule, and provide power distribution for the rest of the smaller circuits.

Ok, I found a photo of the split bus panel with no breakers installed, and see it now. The 50A breaker feeds the upper bus. Thanks!

 

[brantmacga]

Yeah, looks to be a split buss panel. Georgia Power supplied a lot of those many years ago. Usually a sticker with “Property of Georgia Power” on the ones down here. Made installing generators interesting!

FYI, they're required to pay for those to be upgraded as the panels are still legally their property. Lately they've been pushing back harder about paying the bill, and a couple I had to argue a little harder, but so far they've still paid for every panel swap.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Back when larger breakers were expensive, this was used as a cost effective option to one large main breaker. This was made to comply with the six hand motion rule, and provide power distribution for the rest of the smaller circuits.

Back when large fuses and breakers were expensive, this was a cost effective option to one large breaker or two large fuses.

There, IFIFY (I fixed it for you). I have run into more split buss fuse panels than circuit breaker panels.

 

[jaggedben]

That panel needs to be replaced. Among other things, there appear to be branch circuits double and triple tapped on the main lugs. I dearly hope there's overcurrent protection upstream of that point, unlike what was reported.

 

[brantmacga]

That panel needs to be replaced. Among other things, there appear to be branch circuits double and triple tapped on the main lugs. I dearly hope there's overcurrent protection upstream of that point, unlike what was reported.

Thoughts and prayers.

Maybe instead of solar, OP can capture the heat coming off this panel to power a small turbine generator.

 

[James L]

I've seen a whole lot of panels like that. Rarely ever seen one on fire

 

[Frank DuVal]

I dearly hope there's overcurrent protection upstream of that point, unlike what was reported.

Why? The overcurrent for branch circuits is there. One could always use one wire off the breaker screw and then wirenut the several wires currently under one screw, no difference in current carrying capability, nor ability to draw more current in a circuit.

 

[jaggedben]

Why? The overcurrent for branch circuits is there. One could always use one wire off the breaker screw and then wirenut the several wires currently under one screw, no difference in current carrying capability, nor ability to draw more current in a circuit.

Are you looking at the same picture as me? If there actually isn't a service disconnect upstream how could this possibly be okay?

I see small wires double and triple landed on the main lugs, itself a violation. If those wires have overcurrent protection it is out of frame. I also see a red wire landed on the neutral bar. It was reported (although I'm skeptical) that there's no upstream overcurrent protection. It's clear that someone unqualified has been working in this panel, and that they've jury rigged additional circuits because the panel is too small. Yes, perhaps you could pigtail the jury-rigged circuits to existing breakers, but you don't really know if that works until you survey the loads. And you'd be consolidating loads onto breakers that don't have a good reputation for tripping on overload.

The panel appears to be fill. In addition, the split bus and opposite ends arrangement means there's no way to meet the letter of the 120% rule for solar. Extremely unlikely that you can install solar on this panel and pass inspection.

I've also learned enough about how fingers get pointed after incidents to know better than to touch this except to remove it. It's an upsell opportunity. If the owner doesn't want to or doesn't have the money, ignore it completely. There's gotta be a way to tie-in solar upstream.

 

[Jraef]

I've seen a whole lot of panels like that. Rarely ever seen one on fire

Why would you? If it’s on fire, they no longer need an electrician!

 

[Jraef]

Are you looking at the same picture as me? If there actually isn't a service disconnect upstream how could this possibly be okay?

I see small wires double and triple landed on the main lugs, itself a violation. If those wires have overcurrent protection it is out of frame. I also see a red wire landed on the neutral bar. It was reported (although I'm skeptical) that there's no upstream overcurrent protection. It's clear that someone unqualified has been working in this panel, and that they've jury rigged additional circuits because the panel is too small. Yes, perhaps you could pigtail the jury-rigged circuits to existing breakers, but you don't really know if that works until you survey the loads. And you'd be consolidating loads onto breakers that don't have a good reputation for tripping on overload.

The panel appears to be fill. In addition, the split bus and opposite ends arrangement means there's no way to meet the letter of the 120% rule for solar. Extremely unlikely that you can install solar on this panel and pass inspection.

I've also learned enough about how fingers get pointed after incidents to know better than to touch this except to remove it. It's an upsell opportunity. If the owner doesn't want to or doesn't have the money, ignore it completely. There's gotta be a way to tie-in solar upstream.

Yeah, there is a whole lot of craziness going on in that panel, aside from it just being an FPE fire box. One of the smaller (illegal) red wires in the Main Lugs (and probably the black on the other one) is going around and connecting to the LOAD side of the Main breaker that is feeding the upper bus, effectively bypassing that Main breaker!

This entire panel needs a grenade and a replacement ASAP. I would refuse to do ANY modifications to it. This may end up being one of those “You were the last one to retouch it, so you own it” situations.

 

[jaggedben]

Yeah, there is a whole lot of craziness going on in that panel, aside from it just being an FPE fire box. One of the smaller (illegal) red wires in the Main Lugs (and probably the black on the other one) is going around and connecting to the LOAD side of the Main breaker that is feeding the upper bus, effectively bypassing that Main breaker!

This entire panel needs a grenade and a replacement ASAP. I would refuse to do ANY modifications to it. This may end up being one of those “You were the last one to retouch it, so you own it” situations.

Uggh, you are right, don't know how I missed that before.

So maybe the lower section is the service disconnecting means (five handles), but we also effectively have double/triple landed unprotected 12 and 6 awg service conductors feeding the upper section as well as leaving the panel to power loads. Scary as !@#$. Possibly the scariest picture I've seen on this forum.

 

[readydave8]

FYI, they're required to pay for those to be upgraded as the panels are still legally their property. Lately they've been pushing back harder about paying the bill, and a couple I had to argue a little harder, but so far they've still paid for every panel swap.

I could have said that 5 years ago, probably been that long since I've got them to pay for one. (although only been a couple in the last 5 years} Before that it was easy to sell panel upgrade when I told customer POCO would by them a new panel