apartment re-wire

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shocker3218

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I have the opportunity to bid an apartment remodel. One of the 16 apartments had a fire, so now it is gutted. The owner wants to re-wire that apartment, and install a totally new electrical service to the building, and re-wire the other apartments as they become available. Currently, each apartment is served by 2 20 amp fuses. All the meters/panels are located in a common room in the basement.

My question is, would it be feasible to run a 2 inch conduit to a j-box on each floor with feeders for the new panels located above the drop ceiling on each floor's hallway, then branch into each apartment as they get remodeled, or is it better to run a seperate conduit for each apartment? Old service must stay energized until all remodels are complete.

It has to be in conduit as the building is 4 stories above grade, and 4 apartments on each floor. New panels (60 amp 12 space) will be bare minimum load - 2 small apliance circuits, 1 bath circuit, 2 general light and plug circuits, and 1 30 amp 220 for the new heat/ac unit. No ranges, cooktops, dryers, dishwashers, disposals, etc.

Thanks for your input.
 
Re: apartment re-wire

Check with your AHJ, but I'll bet that you'll have to wire each apartment to meet the current code, since they're complete rewires. Ampacity, number of circuits, number and location of plugs, AFI's, GFI's -- the whole works.

They'll probably let you use a larger feeder per floor and tap each panel from it -- you'll have to meet all of the feeder & tap rules.

You'll have to work out how to meter each apartment if they want them metered seperately. Do they want to own the sub-meters and bill each apartment themself for usage, or do they want the power Co. to bill each of them directly? These are 2 radically different approaches. If the power co. is involved, they'll have their own requirements you'll have to meet.

You'll probably also have to meet code for the panel locations, and I don't think that putting them above the ceiling will fly. 110.26 may apply, as well as other requirements (like Article 408).

[ March 18, 2005, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: tx2step ]
 
Re: apartment re-wire

If it is possable to run a seperate feed pipe to each appartment I would do it that way. The reason is if your doing 1 unit at a time. It may be difficult to pull your feeders thru a pipe that allready has feeders in it.

Depending on the length and bends you might want a splice box for each run in the hall cieling to make it better to pull.

You should check with your village to make sure they don't have a minimum 100 amp requirment.

Tom
 
Re: apartment re-wire

I worked on a few of these jobs as an apprentice. Separate feeders were run through a back stairwell to a new panel outside each apartment. In the basement meter main stacks were installed and the power was activated to the new service. The old service was then fed from the new. As the old apartment wiring was upgraded the meter was just taken from the old service and popped into the new. Definitely do the service complete first.
 
Re: apartment re-wire

appereciate all the responses. Local codes dictate that each apartment has to be seperately metered by the power company. I had thought about derating, not sure if city would allow 60 amp subpanels. Definately easier to run separate conduits with that in mind. Each aprtment is less than 500 square ft. Tiny to say the least. I'm even thinking I might have to split wire a duplex and feed it from 2 GFI breakers to get my 2 small appliance circuils.
 
Re: apartment re-wire

I have had inspectors argue that since the disconnect only supplys one apartment it has to follow 230.79(C) Even though I feel that if the caculated load doesn't exceed the 60 amp rating it should be allowed as in 230.79(D) :roll:
 
Re: apartment re-wire

If you split wire a duplex with 2 circuits then it needs to be a 2 pole breaker. A 2 pole 20 amp might be costly. Couldn't you use 1 small appliance circuit for the frig and the other for the 1 GFI outlet?

Tom
 
Re: apartment re-wire

If you split wire a duplex with 2 circuits then it needs to be a 2 pole breaker.
Click to expand...
Just handle ties will do. As long as you don't use a multiwire circuit to feed them you can use two single pole GFCI breakers and tie the handles together. Would be much cheeper to install at least another box so GFCI type receptacles can be used.

Couldn't you use 1 small appliance circuit for the frig and the other for the 1 GFI outlet?
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Nope. 210.52(B)(3) States that "receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve counter top surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits", The refrigerator can be supplied off one of these circuits but at least two must serve the counter top. :D
 
Re: apartment re-wire

How can they dictate that each apartment must be seperately metered? It is a rented space, no different than an extended stay hotel.
Maybe they mean, seperate panels, that I can see, but metered?

As for as the 2pole breaker for multiwired circuits, The only time you need a 2 pole breaker is when you share a common neutral after the first "split" of the circuits. If you branch off of a box with 12/3 with (2) 12/2's One for each circuit you do not need a 2 pole breaker. It's no different electrically if the 2 12/2's went straight to the panel. Now if you continue to run the 12/3 thru each device and alternate the circuits you will have to (1) pigtail the neutral to the device (per code) (2) install a 2 pole breaker.

[ March 21, 2005, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
 
Re: apartment re-wire

Originally posted by bigjohn67:
How can they dictate that each apartment must be seperately metered?
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Not sure what you mean by how, but that is a requirement here in MA for newly constructed or extensively remodeled apartment buildings.

Originally posted by bigjohn67:
Now if you continue to run the 12/3 thru each device and alternate the circuits you will have to (1) pigtail the neutral to the device (per code) (2) install a 2 pole breaker.
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You will not need the handle tied breaker unless both circuits terminate on the same yoke. (receptacle)

Also you only need a handle tie for multiwire branch circuits although you can use a 2 pole breaker.
 
Re: apartment re-wire

It sounds like shocker wants to have a multi wire circuit to the same device yoke.

I looked up 210-4(b) Multiwire circuits in dwelling units

"In dwelling units, a multi wire branch circuit supplying MORE THAN ONE device or equipment on the same yoke shall be provided with means to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors at the panel board where the branch circuit orignated."

Now my first choice would be to use 2 GFI rec. If I did it shockers way with 2 GFI breakers I would tie the handles or use a 2 pole breaker.

My question is:
Is 1 duplex rec more than one device? If it is figured as 2 devices than you would have to tie handles or use a 2 pole. If it is counted a 1 device then code would require nothing if you only have one.

Sorry was wrong about the appliance circuit.

Tom
 
Re: apartment re-wire

Hey Tom....

Just asking...

So 2 circuits on 2 different outlets in one box, 2 yokes. You would still need to pigtail the neutral... correct? I though this was in the code book.
A lost neutral with a load is very dangerous when the connection of the neutal depends on the device when jumping from one device to another without pigtailing if one device is removed.

[ March 22, 2005, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
 
Re: apartment re-wire

A lost neutral with a load is very dangerous when the connection of the neutal depends on the device
Click to expand...
John Only when the circuit is a multiwire is it required to pigtail the neutral. :D

By Tom: Now my first choice would be to use 2 GFI rec. If I did it shockers way with 2 GFI breakers I would tie the handles or use a 2 pole breaker.
Click to expand...
When you see the price of a two pole GFCI you will find a way to use the receptacle type :D
 
Re: apartment re-wire

Originally posted by active1:
My question is:
Is 1 duplex rec more than one device? If it is figured as 2 devices than you would have to tie handles or use a 2 pole. If it is counted a 1 device then code would require nothing if you only have one.
Click to expand...
A duplex receptacle is two devices on one yoke. If two circuits power that duplex, then a means to disconnect both circuits at the same time is required.

I think the idea is, if you plug a tester into one receptacle of a duplex, shut a breaker off and see the lights go out, then there will be an assumption that all power is off. Who thinks to check both halves of a duplex? :)

For regular circuits, see 210.7(B).
For multiwire circuits, see 210.4(B).

If you ever try to use two regular two-wire circuits, GFI protect them individually, and then combine them in the same single-gang on a duplex, remember to break the neutral tab on the duplex too. :D
 
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