appliances fastened in place for standard method cal

[RonWhee]

This is for the standard calculation method for residential dwellings

I have searched the internet and so far I have found a old code from 2002 NEC as a list for these appliances in 220.17.
This section does not exist in 2005 NEC. I would like to know how it is determined when what appliances should be used as part of the four fastened in place for the 75% reduction in load calculation.

Thanks in advanced for your help.

 

[jtester]

Article 100 offers a definition of "appliance" and 220.17 tells you which ones not to count. Any appliance that is fastened in place and not listed is OK. Do you have any specific appliance that you question?

Jim T

 

[RonWhee]

reply to your answer jim is the referigrator fastened in place ??????and if it isn't where do you find this info??? what is fastened in place very confused??:-? :-? :-? :-?

 

[e2me]

Article 100 offers a definition of "appliance" and 220.17 tells you which ones not to count. Any appliance that is fastened in place and not listed is OK. Do you have any specific appliance that you question?

Jim T

there is no 220.17 in the 2005 code

 

[mdshunk]

2002's 220.17 moved to 220.53 in 2005

 

[RonWhee]

thanks for the code now i know what is not fastened in place.please tell me what is a fastened in place app.and where you found it in the nec.:-? :-? :-?

 

[e2me]

2002's 220.17 moved to 220.53 in 2005

thank you
But i think his original question still goes unanswered. What appliances are considered fastened in place for the 220.53 This is a good question and thanks to the NEC it is open to the AHJ as there is no list .So If you bolt down a blender is it considered fasted in place weeeelllllllll Yes but does the AHJ and the service demand see it that way ???

 

[mdshunk]

Is there some doubt as to what "fastened" might mean? If it's standing on its own, it's not fastened. If it's connected to the building structure or the building finish by fasteners of some sort, then it's fastened. I don't need an NEC reference to clear that up. Is there some particular appliance that is causing you some trouble making this determination? Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any that might fall into a grey area. For instance, a countertop microwave is not fastened in place, but a microwave-hood unit is fastened in place. A portable dishwashwer (finished sides, wheels) is not fastened in place, but a built in dishwasher is fastened in place.

 

[RonWhee]

I have a water line hooked to my refrigerator is this considered fastened in place like my water heater. Is all plumbed in app. considered fastened in place

 

[e2me]

NEC definition

NEC definition

:roll:

Is there some doubt as to what "fastened" might mean? If it's standing on its own, it's not fastened. If it's connected to the building structure or the building finish by fasteners of some sort, then it's fastened. I don't need an NEC reference to clear that up. Is there some particular appliance that is causing you some trouble making this determination? Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any that might fall into a grey area. For instance, a countertop microwave is not fastened in place, but a microwave-hood unit is fastened in place. A portable dishwashwer (finished sides, wheels) is not fastened in place, but a built in dishwasher is fastened in place.

Yes there needs to be a NEC referance as i have a large duel under counter mounted canopener nameplate 700watts can this be used to put me into the 4 or more appliances as per your idea yes it can as it is fasted in place and is an appliance but thee AHJ does not see it that way so is it or is it not see we need definition of what they call an appliance and fasted in place

 

[charlie b]

I would include the dishwasher, garbage disposal, trash compactor (Remember those things? They were the rage for a while.), a combination microwave/range hood (I have one of these), and water heater. I would not include the fridge or any countertop kitchen gadget, regardless of whether it is screwed into place.

 

[hillbilly]

I would include the dishwasher, garbage disposal, trash compactor (Remember those things? They were the rage for a while.), a combination microwave/range hood (I have one of these), and water heater. I would not include the fridge or any countertop kitchen gadget, regardless of whether it is screwed into place.

Me either...I have a clock radio that's screwed to the bottom of my kitchen cabinet, I don't think that it qualifies as a fastened in place appliance.
steve

 

[mdshunk]

Me either...I have a clock radio that's screwed to the bottom of my kitchen cabinet, I don't think that it qualifies as a fastened in place appliance.
steve

So... it's screwed to the bottom, but it's not fastened in place? It certainly is fastened in place. It might not be the sort of fastened in place item the code makers had in mind, but we're not really permitted to accompany the NEC with a Ouija board. They only list electric ranges, clothes dryers, space heating equipment, and air-conditioning equipment that are not to be considered in 220.53. No mention of fastened in place can openers, clock radios, etc.

 

[charlie b]

No mention of fastened in place can openers, clock radios, etc.

But there is a definition of "appliance" in Article 100. IMHO, a clock radio has no chance of meeting that definition. Neither, for that matter, would a can opener. Some might argue that a can opener is build in standardized types and does do one or more functions. However, again IMHO, the opening of cans would not fit in with the functions listed after the phrase "such as."

 

[iwire]

So... it's screwed to the bottom, but it's not fastened in place? It certainly is fastened in place.

Marc I agree with you and have no idea how some can pick and choose which fastened in place appliances they will agree are fastened in place.

As a comparison the NEC at times tells us that certain conductors are not current carrying conductors even if they carry current.

I can accept that as the NEC explains the conditions that must exist.

But with fastened in place appliances there is no explanation other than.

1) It's an appliance

2) It's fastened in place.

 

[iwire]

But there is a definition of "appliance" in Article 100. IMHO, a clock radio has no chance of meeting that definition. Neither, for that matter, would a can opener.

I find both in the appliance stores.

I have to check the UL white book, it can be surprising.

For instance a phone answering machine is listed as Information Technology Equipment.

 

[mdshunk]

However, again IMHO, the opening of cans would not fit in with the functions listed after the phrase "such as."

...but, "and so fourth" is a any of a number of things smart people have invented. Many of them are designed to be fastened in place.

 

[hillbilly]

Appliances:
Washing machines, air conditioners, food mixers, deep fryers.......................................................................................................so forth.....................................................clock radios.
That's a long stretch.
steve

 

[charlie b]

To that I will add that most food mixers that sit on most dwelling unit countertops are not "fixed in place." I equate a can opener with a blender: neither counts towards the minimum four needed, in order to be allowwed to use the 75% demand factor.

I might have said that an appliance would have to be hard-wired to count. Then I took a look under my kitchen sink. The disposal and the dishwasher are plugged into a receptacle under the sink. So how about this: if you can see the plug being plugged into the receptacle, while standing in the middle of the kitchen, then that item does not count? :wink:

 

[petersonra]

Is there some doubt as to what "fastened" might mean? If it's standing on its own, it's not fastened. If it's connected to the building structure or the building finish by fasteners of some sort, then it's fastened. I don't need an NEC reference to clear that up. Is there some particular appliance that is causing you some trouble making this determination? Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any that might fall into a grey area. For instance, a countertop microwave is not fastened in place, but a microwave-hood unit is fastened in place. A portable dishwashwer (finished sides, wheels) is not fastened in place, but a built in dishwasher is fastened in place.

most ranges are fastened in place these days.

a lot of people have appliances like toaster ovens, can openers, coffee makers, etc that are fastened in place under the cabinets above a counter.