Appliances fastened in place

[aric.martens]

In article 220.53, it suggests that 4 or more appliances fastened in place can have a demand factor of 75% places on them. Would in floor heat be considered as fastened in place and allow us to use it in the count of 4?

 

[Mouser]

I would say no. See the definition of appliance in Article 100 as it also gives examples.

 

[petersonra]

220.53 Appliance Load — Dwelling Unit(s). It shall be
permissible to apply a demand factor of 75 percent to the
nameplate rating load of four or more appliances fastened
in place, other than electric ranges, clothes dryers, spaceheating
equipment, or air-conditioning equipment, that are
served by the same feeder or service in a one-family, twofamily,
or multifamily dwelling.

I would say the paragraph you referred to answers that question quite nicely.

 

[jumper]

I would say the paragraph you referred to answers that question quite nicely.

:thumbsup:

 

[aric.martens]

Appliances

Appliances

I understand, but if it is designed to warm tiles is it really space heating? I ask this because in Mikes 2014 Dwelling Unit Calc DVD, they are making a list of appliances and they suggest that a heat lamp in a bathroom would be appliance. I am good with the idea that it would not be considered, just wanted others to weigh in on it. Thanks for the help!

 

[jumper]

I understand, but if it is designed to warm tiles is it really space heating? I ask this because in Mikes 2014 Dwelling Unit Calc DVD, they are making a list of appliances and they suggest that a heat lamp in a bathroom would be appliance. I am good with the idea that it would not be considered, just wanted others to weigh in on it. Thanks for the help!

A heat lamp in a bathroom is an appliance IMO, but is a fixed space heating one as is the in floor heating and you cannot use it for the article you cited AFAICT.

 

[augie47]

I understand, but if it is designed to warm tiles is it really space heating? I ask this because in Mikes 2014 Dwelling Unit Calc DVD, they are making a list of appliances and they suggest that a heat lamp in a bathroom would be appliance. I am good with the idea that it would not be considered, just wanted others to weigh in on it. Thanks for the help!

almost sounds like a perfect application of charlies rule:

• It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been saying, and if you�re an author, it doesn�t say what it�s intended to say.
  
  Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, don't ask anyone what is says and don�t think it says what you want it to say.
  
  Go back and read it again and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time. If you don�t like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might find out that what it says, it should be saying�
  
  
  
  ​
  
  
  

 

[ggunn]

almost sounds like a perfect application of charlies rule:

• It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been saying, and if you�re an author, it doesn�t say what it�s intended to say.
  
  Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, don't ask anyone what is says and don�t think it says what you want it to say.
  
  Go back and read it again and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time. If you don�t like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might find out that what it says, it should be saying�​

But then there are the times that I read it, and read it, and read it again, and I still don't know what it says.

 

[kwired]

If there is no other space heating for that space then I'd say it is "space heating".

If there is other space heating for that space, it becomes clear as mud as to whether or not it is included in "space heating".

Is there a control that responds to air temperature of the room or does it only respond to tile temperature? That may be a determining factor.

 

[electrofelon]

Fwiw, Pretty much every under tile heat kit I have seen comes with a temperature sensor (for the tile), and the instructions say or imply that it is for heating the floor not space heating.

 

[Smart $]

Fwiw, Pretty much every under tile heat kit I have seen comes with a temperature sensor (for the tile), and the instructions say or imply that it is for heating the floor not space heating.

"Pretty much every" is not all.

For example (i.e. not an endorsement): http://www.wattsradiant.com/solutions/radiantheating/

 

[K8MHZ]

"Pretty much every" is not all.

For example (i.e. not an endorsement): http://www.wattsradiant.com/solutions/radiantheating/

Those are not tile heaters. They are room heaters. The picture on the site shows a wooden floor.

Edit to add: The same company sells floor heaters as a different product:

http://www.wattsradiant.com/solutions/electricfloorwarming/

 

[iwire]

Come on guys, floor tile heat is not an appliance.

 

[K8MHZ]

Come on guys, floor tile heat is not an appliance.

Webster agrees:

appliance refers to a tool or instrument utilizing a power source and suggests portability or temporary attachment <household appliances>

 

[Smart $]

Come on guys, floor tile heat is not an appliance.

Webster agrees:

appliancerefers to a tool or instrument utilizing a power source and suggests portability or temporary attachment <household appliances>

The bathroom heat lamp mentioned earlier is not an appliance either IMO. A Webster or other dictionary definition has no effect here because Code provides an explicit definition. Given that as it may be, I can see where some may want to stretch the meaning. Code left out the portablility and temporary attachment conditions from its definition. Perhaps someone should propose it be changed. :happyyes:

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial,
that is normally built in standardized sizes or types
and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or
more functions such as clothes washing, air-conditioning,
food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.