Applicability of 230.85 (Emergency Disconnect) with more than 2 meters.

[sjdorst]

I work for an electrical distributor and have received conflicting reports from my customers on what their AHJs are requiring for 230.85 when there is a 3rd meter for a two family dwelling unit!

This comes up when there is a 3rd service that serves common area loads (billed to landlord, aka “house” meter), or a 3rd service for a landlord owned and operated solar installation, and sometimes both!

Some of our local AHJs consider the addition of a “house” and/or solar meter to cause the overall service to NOT be subject to 230.85. Others are of the opinion that, whether or not there is a “house” or solar service, the underlying building is still a one or two family unit, so 230.85 applies!

Would love it if Mike would address as a You Tube - but interested in the thoughts/experiences of members of this forum.

 

[wwhitney]

Part of the problem is that 230.85 refers to "one- and two-family dwelling units," while the NEC defined terms are Dwelling Unit, One-Family Dwelling, and Two-Family Dwelling.

So if you interpret "one- and two-family dwelling units" to just mean One- and Two-Family Dwellings, then emergency disconnects would be required for all the service conductors, i.e. all 3 meters.

Whereas if you interpret "one- and two-family dwelling units" to mean Dwelling Units of One- and Two-Family Dwellings, then emergency disconnects would just be required for the two unit meters, and not for the house meter.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jaggedben]

The NEC does not give a about meters. If there happens to be three utility meters for a two family dwelling that is irrelevant. If your AHJ doesn't realize that then lucky for you.

 

[david]

The NEC does not give a about meters. If there happens to be three utility meters for a two family dwelling that is irrelevant. If your AHJ doesn't realize that then lucky for you.

230.82 (3) does, and the question really is not about three meters it's about three service entrances.

The house panel as you know already, is serving loads common to both dwelling units, ie. Furnace, hot water, egress lighting when there is common egress, basement lighting and ...... so on.

If you are not wanting to use three emergency disconnects, than provide one non fuseable ahead of the meters and let the utility seal it

 

[david]

Part of the problem is that 230.85 refers to "one- and two-family dwelling units," while the NEC defined terms are Dwelling Unit, One-Family Dwelling, and Two-Family Dwelling.

So if you interpret "one- and two-family dwelling units" to just mean One- and Two-Family Dwellings, then emergency disconnects would be required for all the service conductors, i.e. all 3 meters.

Whereas if you interpret "one- and two-family dwelling units" to mean Dwelling Units of One- and Two-Family Dwellings, then emergency disconnects would just be required for the two unit meters, and not for the house meter.

Cheers, Wayne

49 states have adopted the international residential code, the residential code says when there is a conflict between that code and a referance standard code the residential code is applicable

a single family dwelling is a building with one dwelling unit

A two family dwelling is a building with two dwelling units.

So the conflict would be the individual units or the building the units are in.

In 49 states it would be the building the units are in

 

[wwhitney]

conflict between that code and a referance standard code the residential code

230.85 is a conflict per se, it just uses ambiguous language. It should have said either "Dwelling units of one- and two-family dwellings" or just "one- and two-family dwellings," rather than the jumble of defined terms "one- and two-family dwelling units."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jaggedben]

230.82 (3) does,

Not really, it just gives a permission, like a handful of others. There are zero requirements in the NEC that are specific to meters or triggered by their presence, 230.85 included.

and the question really is not about three meters it's about three service entrances.

The OP asked both ways and is likely confused about what a service is. Still, the answer is the same: 230.85 is triggered by whether the building* meets the definition of a one or two family dwelling, not the number of services or service entrances.

*Wayne is correct that 230.85 incorrectly uses a jumble of terms, but I think the only sensible way to read it is to ignore the word 'units'. Then it would be similar to other requirements in the code, such as 690.12(C) and 706.15(B).

 

[david]

I work for an electrical distributor and have received conflicting reports from my customers on what their AHJs are requiring for 230.85 when there is a 3rd meter for a two family dwelling unit!

This comes up when there is a 3rd service that serves common area loads (billed to landlord, aka “house” meter), or a 3rd service for a landlord owned and operated solar installation, and sometimes both!

Some of our local AHJs consider the addition of a “house” and/or solar meter to cause the overall service to NOT be subject to 230.85. Others are of the opinion that, whether or not there is a “house” or solar service, the underlying building is still a one or two family unit, so 230.85 applies!

Would love it if Mike would address as a You Tube - but interested in the thoughts/experiences of members of this forum.

When you Consider how first responders are going to be trained, and what the labeling implies for the disconnect or grouped disconnects, there really is only one answer

 

[wwhitney]

230.85 is a conflict per se, it just uses ambiguous language.

I meant to say "is not a conflict per se, it just uses ambiguous language."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[sjdorst]

The OP asked both ways and is likely confused about what a service is.

I'm not confused about what constitutes a service! I work for an electrical wholesaler - and my customers rely on me for advice on what equipment to use in different situations. And my customers' problem is that different AHDs can't seen to understand the language of the NEC! I only asked here to see if I was overlooking something in the code that might be persuasive to all but the most clueless AHDs - allowing me to advise by customers without the "but some AHDs are confused, so check with them first" bit and, instead, have a code snippet that I can email them - highlighted at the point that should clear things up for the AHDs.

 

[sjdorst]

I'm not confused about what constitutes a service! I work for an electrical wholesaler - and my customers rely on me for advice on what equipment to use in different situations. And my customers' problem is that different AHDs can't seen to understand the language of the NEC! I only asked here to see if I was overlooking something in the code that might be persuasive to all but the most clueless AHDs - allowing me to advise by customers without the "but some AHDs are confused, so check with them first" bit and, instead, have a code snippet that I can email them - highlighted at the point that should clear things up for the AHDs.

Not enough coffee this morning! AHJs - not AHDs!

 

[electrofelon]

Not enough coffee this morning! AHJs - not AHDs!

Please be safe, make sure to stay properly caffeinated!