Apprentice Ratio

controlled

Senior Member
Ontario has finally updated its journeymen to apprentice ratio to 1:1.


Does anyone know if this is a job site ratio as well as company wide? Ive contacted the college of trades as well as MOL. Neither could give me a complete answer.


My main reason for asking is, on an example job, we have 2 jmen and 2 apprentices. If 1 jmen calls in sick 1 day, do I need to send 1 of the apprentices home?
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
Ontario has finally updated its journeymen to apprentice ratio to 1:1.


Does anyone know if this is a job site ratio as well as company wide? Ive contacted the college of trades as well as MOL. Neither could give me a complete answer.


My main reason for asking is, on an example job, we have 2 jmen and 2 apprentices. If 1 jmen calls in sick 1 day, do I need to send 1 of the apprentices home?
i've never seen a situation where that was warranted.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
We have a 1:5 ratio. 1:1 would be very expensive. It's not hard to keep five apprentices busy. They get plenty of learning opportunities.
 

controlled

Senior Member
We have a 1:5 ratio. 1:1 would be very expensive. It's not hard to keep five apprentices busy. They get plenty of learning opportunities.
By 1:5 do you mean 1 jman and 5 apprentices? That would be great.
We just recently went to 1:1.
Prior, we were 1:1 for the first 4 apprentices, then you had to have more jmen than apprentices (not sure how many more were needed)
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
By 1:5 do you mean 1 jman and 5 apprentices? That would be great.
We just recently went to 1:1.
Prior, we were 1:1 for the first 4 apprentices, then you had to have more jmen than apprentices (not sure how many more were needed)
Sounds like you're keeping the j-men fully employed :D
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think 1:1 is ridiculous. Large enough project 1:10 might even be reasonable at times. Problem is AHJ's feel the need to have control.

Tasks being performed play a big factor in this ratio IMO. Unloading a truck on the project site? Maybe don't need a single journeyman at all.

Digging trenches? You certainly can sub contract a non electrician to dig trenches, so what if you are over the ratio but not all apprentices are currently doing tasks that require electrical qualifications.
 

Besoeker3

Senior Member
Location
UK
Digging trenches? You certainly can sub contract a non electrician to dig trenches, so what if you are over the ratio but not all apprentices are currently doing tasks that require electrical qualifications.
But isn't an apprenticeship about learning the trade to become a fully qualified electrician?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
But isn't an apprenticeship about learning the trade to become a fully qualified electrician?
Yes, digging a trench is not something you need electrical qualifications for, these apprentices need qualified supervision for the tasks that otherwise need qualified individuals to perform.

Many AHJ's just come to site and see there are X number of license holders and Y number of apprentices, if it is too many apprentices for number of license holders they make some leave and pay no attention to what tasks they may have been doing that don't even need qualification.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Electrician
Asheville NC was 1:1 for years and went to 1:2 about four years ago, it is hard to meet at times.

When it was mentioned to out of town or out of state bidders many would shrug it off and if they won the bid the day of reckoning would come and they would contracting jmen from local contractors at big rates.

Roger
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Been a while since I have done anything in Indiana, but if I remember correctly the ratio there was two apprentice to one journeyman. Usually Union areas have low ratios.
 
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controlled

Senior Member
Up until the recent change on Ontario, it was 1:1 for first couple of jmen. After i think 4 apprentices it was 5 or 6 jmen. They did not want any apprentices doing anything without a jmen working along side.
Thankfully this has been changed. I do know that the IBEW was not happy with the chage
 

NTesla76

Member
Location
IA
Here locally it is a 1:1 ratio. The state has a 3:1 ratio. The 1:1 is really hard to abide by and enforce. 3 being apprentices to 1 journeyman.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Not bashing Unions, but states where Unions are strong, state and local laws are the same. Just a fact. Nothing more.
Probably because the unions do lobby lawmakers to try to get what they want out of legislation. Whether agenda is right or wrong, it is part of why they exist.

Trade associations can do similar, they just aren't quite the same thing as a labor union.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Probably because the unions do lobby lawmakers to try to get what they want out of legislation. Whether agenda is right or wrong, it is part of why they exist.

Trade associations can do similar, they just aren't quite the same thing as a labor union.
They don’t collect as much money for the lobbying.:)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
They don’t collect as much money for the lobbying.:)
Kind of true I would think, they are more like volunteer firemen doing what they do for little to no pay, vs full time firemen who are paid to do what they do.

The union is lobbying to improve conditions for their members work, pay, etc and is somewhat likely to have paid persons doing the lobbying. The trade association is lobbying for what they feel is fair or right for the majority of their members or even the general public that is affected by the laws they are lobbying for/against plus they likely are taking unpaid time to do the lobbying.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
seems tough to justify to me. what is the ratio of resident doctors to interns?
Every time I see a medical show with interns following a doctor on rounds, there seems to be three or four of them. That said I don't think you can compare doctors and electricians. Electrical apprentice screw-ups may result in lost money. Intern screw-ups may result in loss of life. Apprentices are sent off to work by themselves routinely. I would hope that interns are more closely monitored.
 
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