Arc fault breakers again

[Riograndeelectric]

Ok so when both the Electrical are manufactures SQ D, Siemens. Cutler hammer & GE and the appliance manufactures going to get tighter and ensure that when we install arc fault breakers as required that the appliances are not going to start nuisance tripping the breakers.
I have a customer who runs a business out of his basement and just expanded the basement to finish off more space. I installed all new arc fault circuits.
The customer has a high end Konica Minolta color copier, net work printer and fax. The copier specs called out for a dedicated 20-amp circuit. the customer yesterday had the copier delivered and plugged it in and with 5 minutes the breaker tripped this was when the copier is not being used just at an idle.

Therefore, when are both sides going to get together and make a good appliance that does not send a distortion along the circuit or have a high current leakage?
I hate telling the customer that the breaker is doing its job and function properly and that it is the equipments fault.

 

[mdshunk]

What was the leakage current you measured from the appliance at idle?

 

[JohnJ0906]

Did you try plugging the copier into another AFCI circuit?
Did you try another load in the circuit that the copier originally tripped?

 

[Riograndeelectric]

Did you try plugging the copier into another AFCI circuit?
Did you try another load in the circuit that the copier originally tripped?

I plugged the copier into a 15 amp exsting non afci circuit with other computers and a personal printer pluuged into the same 15 amp circuit. the breaker on the exsting 15 amp circuit did not trip.
the copier trippes the other 15 convince afci circuit that I just installed.

Marc,I did not measure for any leakage as I do not have a megger.
I would be afraid to megger out any type of electronic appliance for fear of doing harm

 

[mdshunk]

Marc,I did not measure for any leakage as I do not have a megger.

Perfect, because you don't need a megger to measure leakage.

Without taking leakage measurements of any sort, you cannot possibly condemn any AFCI or GFCI breaker. You cannot rule in our out the appliance itself at this point. Just because it's new doesn't mean squat.

 

[ivsenroute]

I just want to know why the basement has AFCI protection.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

I just want to know why the basement has AFCI protection.

as required by the 2008 code. and becuse it is finshed space

 

[Riograndeelectric]

Perfect, because you don't need a megger to measure leakage.

Without taking leakage measurements of any sort, you cannot possibly condemn any AFCI or GFCI breaker. You cannot rule in our out the appliance itself at this point. Just because it's new doesn't mean squat.

I am not condemning AFCI breakers but the fact the I have 2 cases recentlly where an appliance was tripping an AFCI circuit.
so what is the best way to take measurements with out having a megger or doing harm to an applinace.

I belive in each case the AFCI breaker was doing its job in tripping

 

[mdshunk]

Make a cheater cord to breakout the hot, neutral, and ground. Measure milliamps on the ground, or do a zero sequence test on the hot and neutral together.

 

[jmsbrush]

Make a cheater cord to breakout the hot, neutral, and ground. Measure milliamps on the ground, or do a zero sequence test on the hot and neutral together.

Marc please do not laugh but I'm not familiar with the term Zero sequence test. Can you please explain?

 

[mdshunk]

amprobe around hot and neutral together. If you get a reading, that current's going elsewhere.

 

[Cow]

Make a cheater cord to breakout the hot, neutral, and ground. Measure milliamps on the ground, or do a zero sequence test on the hot and neutral together.

Learned something new. Plus, it's one more test I can add to my bag of tricks!

 

[ivsenroute]

amprobe around hot and neutral together. If you get a reading, that current's going elsewhere

Great recommendation but make sure you have a consistent draw at a higher level otherwise depending on the quality of your clamp on you may get an erroneous reading in tenths.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

amprobe around hot and neutral together. If you get a reading, that current's going elsewhere.

thanks for explaining the zero sequnce test

 

[wptski]

amprobe around hot and neutral together. If you get a reading, that current's going elsewhere.

There is this thread by ELA. Near the end a post lists the leakage current trip point at .040A for the combo AFCI which is a bit higher than the .030A that has been mention is some threads here. I doubt if a ordinary current clamp is going to register anything that low. A current clamp made for measuring low leakage current will be needed.