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Arc fault breakers.

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Hello everyone. Was curious has anybody seen where arc fault breakers are stacked together in a panel and causing a little discolor on the neutral wire on the breaker. Almost like those breakers together are creating enough heat to do this. Other branch circuits that aren’t near the arc faults are fine. Their is like 9 stacked together on both sides of the buss bar. Just seeing if anybody else has seen this. Thanks
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
No, I don’t think I’ve seen this.
So your talking about the non-plug on neutral types? Where the neutral wires come out of the breaker?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Have not heard of anything. You have a link or something with a recall on breakers???
Here is the info for a recall of the sq. d panels

 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The neutral used BY the AFCI breaker is only powering the little tiny electronic board inside of the breaker itself and in a plug-on neutral type breaker, it’s not drawing off of the neutral wire anyway. It’s most likely loose connections.

Over heated neutrals are sometimes the result of high harmonic “non-linear” loads causing excess neutral current flow. With so many things being electronic now, harmonics in homes is becoming more of a thing than it used to be. Every LED or CFL lamp is now an electronic load, refrigerators, air conditioners, heat pumps, washers, dryers, dishwashers, and of course computers, game systems, TVs, sound systems, virtually everything we use now.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Over heated neutrals are sometimes the result of high harmonic “non-linear” loads causing excess neutral current flow. With so many things being electronic now, harmonics in homes is becoming more of a thing than it used to be.
Increased neutral current is only possible with multi-wire 3 or 4 wire circuits. It would not occur on 2 wire branches typically seen in residental construction using AFCI breakers.
 
The neutral used BY the AFCI breaker is only powering the little tiny electronic board inside of the breaker itself and in a plug-on neutral type breaker, it’s not drawing off of the neutral wire anyway. It’s most likely loose connections.

Over heated neutrals are sometimes the result of high harmonic “non-linear” loads causing excess neutral current flow. With so many things being electronic now, harmonics in homes is becoming more of a thing than it used to be. Every LED or CFL lamp is now an electronic load, refrigerators, air conditioners, heat pumps, washers, dryers, dishwashers, and of course computers, game systems, TVs, sound systems, virtually everything we use now.
So I have checked connections. Everything is tight and up to par. Could this have been a bad batch of breakers??? Because I have 9- single 20 and 8 single 15. No signs of anything wrong on the wire, just the insulation has changed color. They are all plug on breakers. These were installed in 2018. Their square d homline.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
No signs of anything wrong on the wire, just the insulation has changed color.
I think I've read twice where you said this

The change in color is absolutely a sign of something wrong on the wire. Wires don't just change color. When a white wire turns yellow, and on to brown, that means it's too hot for one reason or another
 

garbo

Senior Member
Hello everyone. Was curious has anybody seen where arc fault breakers are stacked together in a panel and causing a little discolor on the neutral wire on the breaker. Almost like those breakers together are creating enough heat to do this. Other branch circuits that aren’t near the arc faults are fine. Their is like 9 stacked together on both sides of the buss bar. Just seeing if anybody else has seen this. Thanks
I asked at a IAEI class about concerns on AFCI breakers in a 42 circuits normal 14.5" wide panels overheating especially if panel was installed between wall studs and had over 30 AFCI breakers. Was told that UL performed test on 84 circuit panels with entire panel filled with AFCI breakers and that they did not produce any overheating. Can tell you that at the large hospital that I retired from we used a FLIR camera once a year to check all of the thousands of circuit breakers. We had a mental health unit where we had over 30 Square D bolt on 20 amp AFCI circuit breakers. Both these and GFCI breakers usually were a few degrees hotter then a regular circuit breaker. Never saw a wire discolor on any of them. I would cut at least a inch off of discolored wire then reinstall using a torque driver then check back in it several times.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The neutral used BY the AFCI breaker is only powering the little tiny electronic board inside of the breaker itself and in a plug-on neutral type breaker, it’s not drawing off of the neutral wire anyway.
Doesn't all of the load neutral current flow through the breaker? The breaker is plugged into the neutral bus and the branch circuit neutral connects to the terminal on the breaker.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Doesn't all of the load neutral current flow through the breaker? The breaker is plugged into the neutral bus and the branch circuit neutral connects to the terminal on the breaker.
Most of them are like this but some newer types don't have a neutral terminal on the breaker. The neutral lands on the neutral bar like on a traditional breaker. Only AFCI types can be like this, not GFCI types (obviously, I guess).

I can't tell for sure from the OP's original post where the neutrals that are discolored are landed.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Doesn't all of the load neutral current flow through the breaker? The breaker is plugged into the neutral bus and the branch circuit neutral connects to the terminal on the breaker.
Yeah, sort of. There are two kinds of AFCI detection, Series and Parallel. Most of the AFCI-only breakers are Series, meaning they monitor only for wire breaks on the hot line, so the neutral connection is just to power the PCB inside. Parallel type only monitor for arcs from line to neutral or line to ground, so they do monitor the neutral current, but most AFCI-only breakers are not Parallel type since that doesn’t detect wire breaks, which was the original problem.

Combination type (CAFCI) do both Series and Parallel, as do Dual Function type (AFCI/GFCI), so they too are monitoring the neutral.

In any case though, the BREAKER is not itself adding any significant load to the neutral wire, so would not be the cause of any discoloration, which was the OPs premise.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Yeah, sort of. There are two kinds of AFCI detection, Series and Parallel. Most of the AFCI-only breakers are Series, meaning they monitor only for wire breaks on the hot line, so the neutral connection is just to power the PCB inside. Parallel type only monitor for arcs from line to neutral or line to ground, so they do monitor the neutral current, but most AFCI-only breakers are not Parallel type since that doesn’t detect wire breaks, which was the original problem.

Combination type (CAFCI) do both Series and Parallel, as do Dual Function type (AFCI/GFCI), so they too are monitoring the neutral.
I don't believe the above is correct, as far as which types of breakers detect current imbalance between line and neutral. IIRC many (all?) of the earlier Branch Feeder (Parallel only) AFCIs did check for current imbalance. And to my knowledge, almost all the AFCIs available today are Combination type, while several manufacturers of them no longer check for current imbalance.

Anyway, if the neutral current is running through the breaker, then the resistance of the neutral connections and current path through the breaker will generate additional heat compared to a breaker that only has the line current running through it. But I would guess that as the thermal element is intentionally heating up, the effect of the extra neutral current through the breaker would not be large.

Cheers, Wayne
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I don't understand how or why, from a theoretical standpoint, it would be necessary for the breaker to 'see' the neutral to detect parallel arc faults and not series arc faults. If the 'parallel' fault is to a conductor other than the circuit neutral conductor, then that's either handled by GFCI functionality or else the breaker doesn't 'see' the neutral current anyway. If the parallel fault is to the circuit neutral, then I don't see the difference with series arc-faults. The disruption to the waveform will be somewhat different, but all current will still return on the neutral. Perhaps there is an engineering reason why it is easier to detect the relevant waveform fluctuations if you can 'see' both hot and neutral. But I don't see why it should be necessary theoretically. AFCI is supposed to be just looking at the waveform for certain tell-tale patterns, right?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The neutral used BY the AFCI breaker is only powering the little tiny electronic board inside of the breaker itself and in a plug-on neutral type breaker, it’s not drawing off of the neutral wire anyway. It’s most likely loose connections.

Over heated neutrals are sometimes the result of high harmonic “non-linear” loads causing excess neutral current flow. With so many things being electronic now, harmonics in homes is becoming more of a thing than it used to be. Every LED or CFL lamp is now an electronic load, refrigerators, air conditioners, heat pumps, washers, dryers, dishwashers, and of course computers, game systems, TVs, sound systems, virtually everything we use now.
However a GFCI or dual function breaker, will not work unless the circuit neutral current passes through the breaker. That means twice the heat generation at the bus connections and the screw lugs. If all are good, there will be no significant heat compared to the thermal element inside the breaker. But it gives twice the opportunity for a heat-producing bad connection.
 
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