Arc Fault in dining/kitchen

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Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
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Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I guess I am on a resentment trip about arc fault codes right now. So I just noticed that arc fault is required in dining rooms. I notice in their somewhat arbitrary way they fail to specifically list pantries yet this room type is directly addressed in an associated section of chapter 2. Also arbitrary, they (I believe intentionally) don't include kitchens in this requirement. Yet the small appliance branch circuit requirement has these circuits shared to the exclusion of all other circuits. No really a question, more of a rant.
 
Strathead said:
I guess I am on a resentment trip about arc fault codes right now. So I just noticed that arc fault is required in dining rooms. I notice in their somewhat arbitrary way they fail to specifically list pantries yet this room type is directly addressed in an associated section of chapter 2. Also arbitrary, they (I believe intentionally) don't include kitchens in this requirement. Yet the small appliance branch circuit requirement has these circuits shared to the exclusion of all other circuits. No really a question, more of a rant.
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What code cycle are you on? Seem to recall someone recently mentioning FL is just now switching to 2011. But looking at my 2011 it didn't indicate any change in the list of rooms for AFCI requirements so that dining room was also required to be protected in 2008 from what I see. The pantry, breakfast room etc. however may be covered by "or similar rooms or areas" depending on how AHJ wants to interpret it though.
 
kwired said:
What code cycle are you on? Seem to recall someone recently mentioning FL is just now switching to 2011. But looking at my 2011 it didn't indicate any change in the list of rooms for AFCI requirements so that dining room was also required to be protected in 2008 from what I see. The pantry, breakfast room etc. however may be covered by "or similar rooms or areas" depending on how AHJ wants to interpret it though.
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I 100% believe the pantry is covered by "similar" but that is part of my rant about the arbitrary nature. I was referring to both code cycles 2008 and 2011
 
Strathead said:
I guess I am on a resentment trip about arc fault codes right now. So I just noticed that arc fault is required in dining rooms. I notice in their somewhat arbitrary way they fail to specifically list pantries yet this room type is directly addressed in an associated section of chapter 2. Also arbitrary, they (I believe intentionally) don't include kitchens in this requirement. Yet the small appliance branch circuit requirement has these circuits shared to the exclusion of all other circuits. No really a question, more of a rant.
Click to expand...
I am not so sure I would call it "intentionally"...as clearly in the 2014 NEC Kitchens were added...It was more like a slow methodical plan of attack really.
 
Strathead said:
I guess I am on a resentment trip about arc fault codes right now. So I just noticed that arc fault is required in dining rooms. I notice in their somewhat arbitrary way they fail to specifically list pantries yet this room type is directly addressed in an associated section of chapter 2. Also arbitrary, they (I believe intentionally) don't include kitchens in this requirement. Yet the small appliance branch circuit requirement has these circuits shared to the exclusion of all other circuits. No really a question, more of a rant.
Click to expand...

And the sad part is AFCI provide no significant fire protection in a dwelling. Arc faults are not the main cause of fires, in fact they are one of the least.

See post 269 & 291:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/differences-our-electrical-systems-40273/index15/


Looking for an arc signature is a witch hunt as most electrical fires will NEVER produce an arc signature. So with that said AFCIs offer no significant protection, if any. The obscene money being thrown into pseudo science AFCI could come up with a real solution to glowing connections.
Click to expand...

This is the real issue that AFCIs will not catch:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/glowing-connections-92673/


For the few times an arc fault will occur GFP will catch it. GFP will not nuisance trip.

In nearly all cases, the arcing fault occurred between the hot and ground
conductors.
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I am sorry you have to deal with this.
 
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mbrooke said:
And the sad part is AFCI provide no significant fire protection in a dwelling. Arc faults are not the main cause of fires, in fact they are one of the least.
Click to expand...

I can see you are of the same mind as me. Even if you are willing to concede that arc fault will save some lives, the lives saved vs. the outrageous cost is not a pay off. My friend tries to take the "humanitarian" position that you can't place a value on human life and even 50 lives across the United States 318,000,000 people which would be an extremely generous amount of lives saved from arc fault. My position is, if human life is that valuable, cut the speed limit to say 25 miles an hours that would virtually eliminate the 30,000 or more traffic deaths per year. And save gas in the process. That is not going to happen.
 
FYI, dining rooms were added to the AFCI requirements in the 2008 Code cycle. This is 2015, is FL that far behind in Code cycles ? If, when wiring the house, you chose to extend the dining room circuit to one of the kitchen counter circuits then not only would that kitchen circuit be AFCI protected it would also be GFCI protected by the use of a GFI receptacle. Kitchens and laundry rooms were added in the 2014 Code cycle.
 
goldstar said:
FYI, dining rooms were added to the AFCI requirements in the 2008 Code cycle. This is 2015, is FL that far behind in Code cycles ? If, when wiring the house, you chose to extend the dining room circuit to one of the kitchen counter circuits then not only would that kitchen circuit be AFCI protected it would also be GFCI protected by the use of a GFI receptacle. Kitchens and laundry rooms were added in the 2014 Code cycle.
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Yes and no. The 2011 was recently and I mean couple months ago, adopted. But your comment regarding the dining room has no bearing on my post since I was fully aware it was in both the 2008 and the 2011 version.
 
mbrooke said:
And the sad part is AFCI provide no significant fire protection in a dwelling. Arc faults are not the main cause of fires, in fact they are one of the least.

See post 269 & 291:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/differences-our-electrical-systems-40273/index15/




This is the real issue that AFCIs will not catch:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/glowing-connections-92673/


For the few times an arc fault will occur GFP will catch it. GFP will not nuisance trip.



I am sorry you have to deal with this.
Click to expand...

Accept it, Reject it, Love it, Hate it....choose your poison. But the fact remains....You MUST install it....:angel:
 
Strathead said:
I can see you are of the same mind as me. Even if you are willing to concede that arc fault will save some lives, the lives saved vs. the outrageous cost is not a pay off. My friend tries to take the "humanitarian" position that you can't place a value on human life and even 50 lives across the United States 318,000,000 people which would be an extremely generous amount of lives saved from arc fault. My position is, if human life is that valuable, cut the speed limit to say 25 miles an hours that would virtually eliminate the 30,000 or more traffic deaths per year. And save gas in the process. That is not going to happen.
Click to expand...


The outrageous cost could be used toward something to target glowing connections (the main cause of fires) or as donresqucapt19 mentioned fire sprinklers in residential. Both approaches would save lives (maximum return in capitol investment)





MasterTheNEC said:
Accept it, Reject it, Love it, Hate it....choose your poison. But the fact remains....You MUST install it....:angel:
Click to expand...


Not if your in Indiana or soon New Hampshire:p Or just slip a GFP in the panel hoping the inspector thinks its an AFCI (actually works out well sometimes) :angel:
 
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