Arc Fault protected dishwasher circuit?

[dhalleron]

I need to add a receptacle in a basement near a wet bar. The walls and ceiling are finished drywall so I cannot get a new circuit to this area without cutting drywall or running surface mount. I am able to fish a wire from an existing receptacle located above the counter on the bar. This is on a 3-wire circuit with a shared neutral to a dishwasher under the bar.

My inspector is requiring any new wiring in this area have arc fault protection. My supply house told me Square D does not yet make a QO (not Homeline) series 2-pole 20 amp arc fault breaker.

I don?t think a single pole arc fault breaker will work properly on one circuit of this 3-wire circuit with a shared neutral.

The inspector told me he would allow me to convert the 3-wire circuit to a 2-wire and put the dishwasher and receptacles on the same circuit. There will only be a couple convenience outlets on the same circuit with the dishwasher. Then I could use a single pole arc fault breaker.

Should I expect any problems with a dishwasher on an arc fault breaker? Any other ideas?

Thanks.

 

[gndrod]

I need to add a receptacle in a basement near a wet bar. The walls and ceiling are finished drywall so I cannot get a new circuit to this area without cutting drywall or running surface mount. I am able to fish a wire from an existing receptacle located above the counter on the bar. This is on a 3-wire circuit with a shared neutral to a dishwasher under the bar.

My inspector is requiring any new wiring in this area have arc fault protection. My supply house told me Square D does not yet make a QO (not Homeline) series 2-pole 20 amp arc fault breaker.

I don?t think a single pole arc fault breaker will work properly on one circuit of this 3-wire circuit with a shared neutral.

The inspector told me he would allow me to convert the 3-wire circuit to a 2-wire and put the dishwasher and receptacles on the same circuit. There will only be a couple convenience outlets on the same circuit with the dishwasher. Then I could use a single pole arc fault breaker.

Should I expect any problems with a dishwasher on an arc fault breaker? Any other ideas?

Thanks.

If any of those receptacles are within 6' of the wet bar sink edge, I believe a GFCI is also needed. [210.8(A)(7)]

 

[dhalleron]

If any of those receptacles are within 6' of the wet bar sink edge, I believe a GFCI is also needed. [210.8(A)(7)]

I was going to change the wet bar outlet to GFCI and feed through to my new outlet. This house is only 11 years old and someone got away without a GFCI within 2' of the sink. I'm sure it wasn't inspected when the basement was finished.

That's another can of worms. I wonder if the inspector will say anything about this basement maybe not being permitted in the past. It was done before the current owners bought it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you direct wire the dishwasher it does not need AFCI nor GFCI protection.

 

[dhalleron]

If you direct wire the dishwasher it does not need AFCI nor GFCI protection.

The dishwasher is already there and is not currently on GFCI or AFCI and doesn't need to be.

My problem is that the dishwasher is on the 2nd circuit of a multi-wire circuit that I need to turn into an arc fault protected circuit. I can't turn only 1 circuit of a multi-wire circuit into AFCI protected because 1- the arc fault will probably trip because of the imbalance of the circuit and 2- the multi-wire circuit is supposed to be on a 2-pole breaker which it is not currently.

Whether I use a 2 pole arc fault breaker (which I'm told Square D QO AFCI does not exist) or convert the 3-wire circuit to a 2-wire circuit and use a 1 pole arc fault, the dishwasher will need to be on an arc fault breaker. Will the dishwasher be a problem on an arc fault breaker?

 

[Steviechia2]

Sounds like this is going to be a bigger job than you or owner thought!

 

[tom baker]

If you direct wire the dishwasher it does not need AFCI nor GFCI protection.

AFCI protection is required for outlets, GFCI is required for receptacles, AFCI protection is required, unless this area is a kitchen

 

[ptonsparky]

If it is a kitchen, that opens another can of worms.

 

[dhalleron]

If it is a kitchen, that opens another can of worms.

Ah, but it's not a kitchen. It's an entertainment room in a walkout basement with a couch, TV, a bar, small sink and a dishwasher.

All this because someone forgot to put an outlet on the wall behind the couch. Homeowner needs a place to plug in his wireless surround sound speakers.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

AFCI protection is required for outlets, GFCI is required for receptacles, AFCI protection is required, unless this area is a kitchen

You are correct. I don't know what I was thinking? :grin:

 

[ptonsparky]

Ah, but it's not a kitchen. It's an entertainment room in a walkout basement with a couch, TV, a bar, small sink and a dishwasher.

All this because someone forgot to put an outlet on the wall behind the couch. Homeowner needs a place to plug in his wireless surround sound speakers.

Let me know how well those work.

 

[dhalleron]

Let me know how well those work.

They actually work pretty well. I've never really set them up but have heard them. They just need power at the speaker and the sound is sent wirelessly from some kind of transmitter box at your AV receiver.

 

[readydave8]

I use wireless speakers with the transmitter plugged into the headset port on my laptop to listen to internet radio throughout the house. It works great, almost never use radio at home anymore. Also the sound quality is better than that of the laptop.

Transmitter and 2 speakers was around $75 on sale.

 

[BMacky]

Siemans/Murray makes the double-pole AFCI for MWBC. Can you pull a small sub-panel off the existing panel and re-route thsi branch circuits' cable into the new sub? Just an idea. Breaker's around $80, other materials can't be much. Don't forget your tamper-proof outlet!:grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I find it quite bizarre that Sq. D does not have a DP afci for this purpose. They may be the only manufacture that doesn't make one. It used to be they didn't have them for the homeline panel but now they do. I guess they are not thinking of the retro work being worth it. Does nobody use the QO for residences any more???

 

[dhalleron]

I couldn't find the DP AFCI at Home Depot and my supply house guy at Rexel said they don't make them. The house is about 11 years old with the QO panel in it.

I thought about the sub panel. What a dorky way to jump through the hoops to make it work.

I am using tamper proof outlets all the time now.

I'm going there today to see if I can change it to a 2-wire circuit without overloading anything. If so, then all I need to worry about is whether or not the AFCI will hold on a dishwasher. Nobody has been able to offer insight to that one.

This is the same house I am trying to replace the small can lights with larger ones in the basement. I'll also find out today if the new cans will fit in the space.

 

[Hendrix]

The breaker might hold if you don't use the heat cycle

 

[John120/240]

I find it quite bizarre that Sq. D does not have a DP afci for this purpose. They may be the only manufacture that doesn't make one. It used to be they didn't have them for the homeline panel but now they do. I guess they are not thinking of the retro work being worth it. Does nobody use the QO for residences any more???

Yes SQ D QO for new residental. For arc fault protected circuits I would use

14-2-2 NM

 

[1793]

Yes SQ D QO for new residental. For arc fault protected circuits I would use

14-2-2 NM

I've started to use more and more of the 12/2/2. 12/2/2 NM quite common in this area, not so much for 14/2/2.

 

[dhalleron]

I guess I won't find out if the dishwasher will work on the AFCI. I was mistaken. It turns out the 3-wire circuit was for an outlet and some lights. I just put it all on one circuit with my new outlet and then installed the AFCI breaker.