Arc fault required for service change 2014 Code

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hkme

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I changed the service disconnect, and changed the inside panel without moving it, and the inspector turned me down for no arc fault breakers. I thought if you didn't move the panel 6 feet you didn't have to install AFCI breakers?
 
You are looking for 210.12(B) exception.

Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where
the extension of the existing conductors is not more than
1.8 m (6 ft) and does not include any additional outlets or
devices.
 
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I also replaced the receptacles to new white tamper resist. so the inspector is using reference to NEC 406.4 (D) (4) for enforcing the Arc Fault requirement.
 
jumper said:
Well, that makes a big difference. Inspector is correct. Off to AFCI land for you.
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I don't know....If the branch circuit wasn't modified more than 6 feet, then IMO the receptacle outlet is not "supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit interrupter protection..."

I guess that is open to interpretation, but worst case, OP note you could use AFCI outlets at the first replaced outlet.
 
jumper said:
:happyyes:

In general, most jurisdictions do not require a permit for simply swapping devices.

Should have made them separate jobs. Too late now.
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You are correct but I must say my first response was somewhat tongue in cheek, you should follow the code whether an inspection is required or not.
 
infinity said:
You are correct but I must say my first response was somewhat tongue in cheek, you should follow the code whether an inspection is required or not.
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I know, so was my silly crack about making it two jobs.

The cost, labor, time, liability and effort to try and do something that is illegal pretty much nixes the actual doing of such foolishness.
 
Here's the problem I have with this and my response is not specifically Code related. When you're replacing or upgrading an electric service I don't understand why an EI would compel you to now provide either AFCI breakers or 2-P breakers for MWBC's. You're replacing like with like. The circuits have been in existence for "X" years and have functioned just fine. The presumption is that the original electrical system was inspected and Code compliant at the time it was installed. You have no idea how the circuits were run, whether they were properly grounded, how the cables were stapled or supported, etc. I think an EI would be opening up a big can of worms by requiring this. Besides, you gave your customer a price to do the work, now you have to go back and ask for more $$. Electrical contracting is competitive enough - why add another layer of ridiculous requirements to get the job ?

Just my 2 cents worth.:roll:
 
goldstar said:
Here's the problem I have with this and my response is not specifically Code related. When you're replacing or upgrading an electric service I don't understand why an EI would compel you to now provide either AFCI breakers or 2-P breakers for MWBC's. You're replacing like with like. The circuits have been in existence for "X" years and have functioned just fine. The presumption is that the original electrical system was inspected and Code compliant at the time it was installed. You have no idea how the circuits were run, whether they were properly grounded, how the cables were stapled or supported, etc. I think an EI would be opening up a big can of worms by requiring this. Besides, you gave your customer a price to do the work, now you have to go back and ask for more $$. Electrical contracting is competitive enough - why add another layer of ridiculous requirements to get the job ?

Just my 2 cents worth.:roll:
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The arc fault requirement would apply to the circuits where the receptacles were changed not the entire service. In NJ I believe that you're in luck as they have removed this requirement. :cool:

iv. Section 210.12(B), entitled "Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications - Dwelling Units," is deleted in its entirety.
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infinity said:
The arc fault requirement would apply to the circuits where the receptacles were changed not the entire service. In NJ I believe that you're in luck as they have removed this requirement. :cool:
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Aside from us here in NJ, why would changing receptacles require converting the circuit(s) to AFCI ?
 
I'm sorry. I guess I missed 406.4(D) due to the fact that I live in NJ and someone at the State level decided a long time ago that this section would present a hardship for many HO's. As such we EC's in NJ do not have to comply with this section. But, stop and think about this for a moment - you're called out on a service call to a house built in the 1950's and for a defective receptacle:
  1. If you leave the existing receptacle in place, irrespective of whether it is grounded or not, you do not have to convert the circuit to AFCI
  2. If you change out the receptacle - now you have to convert the circuit to AFCI
What if the breaker panel is too old to accept AFCI breakers (I can go on and on with a lot of "ifs") ? Am I missing something or mis-interpreting this section ? I understand the need for safety but this section is ridiculous IMHO. Glad I live in NJ (but that could change if someone at the State level decides to accept the 2017 NEC in its entirety):rant:
 
goldstar said:
I'm sorry. I guess I missed 406.4(D) due to the fact that I live in NJ and someone at the State level decided a long time ago that this section would present a hardship for many HO's. As such we EC's in NJ do not have to comply with this section. But, stop and think about this for a moment - you're called out on a service call to a house built in the 1950's and for a defective receptacle:
  1. If you leave the existing receptacle in place, irrespective of whether it is grounded or not, you do not have to convert the circuit to AFCI
  2. If you change out the receptacle - now you have to convert the circuit to AFCI
What if the breaker panel is too old to accept AFCI breakers (I can go on and on with a lot of "ifs") ? Am I missing something or mis-interpreting this section ? I understand the need for safety but this section is ridiculous IMHO. Glad I live in NJ (but that could change if someone at the State level decides to accept the 2017 NEC in its entirety):rant:
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IDK. I do not do resi or service work, so I do not face this problem either.

My whole experience with AFCIs is installing two breakers back in 2006. Never touched another and never trouble shooted a problem with them or anything else AFCI related.

I suppose all that would be required is to install an a AFCI receptacle, since 406.xx only calls for protection at the receptacle outlet and not the whole circuit. Technically that is all that is required as I mentioned earlier.
 
jumper said:
IDK. I do not do resi or service work, so I do not face this problem either.

My whole experience with AFCIs is installing two breakers back in 2006. Never touched another and never trouble shooted a problem with them or anything else AFCI related.
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How lucky can you get ? Go out and buy a lottery ticket.;)
 
goldstar said:
I'm sorry. I guess I missed 406.4(D) due to the fact that I live in NJ and someone at the State level decided a long time ago that this section would present a hardship for many HO's. As such we EC's in NJ do not have to comply with this section. But, stop and think about this for a moment - you're called out on a service call to a house built in the 1950's and for a defective receptacle:
  1. If you leave the existing receptacle in place, irrespective of whether it is grounded or not, you do not have to convert the circuit to AFCI
  2. If you change out the receptacle - now you have to convert the circuit to AFCI
What if the breaker panel is too old to accept AFCI breakers (I can go on and on with a lot of "ifs") ? Am I missing something or mis-interpreting this section ? I understand the need for safety but this section is ridiculous IMHO. Glad I live in NJ (but that could change if someone at the State level decides to accept the 2017 NEC in its entirety):rant:
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When you replace just install an AFCI receptacle as Jumper stated no need to try and find an AFCI circuit breaker for that FPE panel. :)
 
goldstar said:
How lucky can you get ? Go out and buy a lottery ticket.;)
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I need to clarify my statement.

I do not do resi or service work any more. I used to at a college in VA, but I left in 2010.

VA AFCI requirements are still 2005 and those did not get adopted till 2008. This really did not affect the college, dorms were not required to AFCI under 2005.
 
infinity said:
When you replace just install an AFCI receptacle as Jumper stated no need to try and find an AFCI circuit breaker for that FPE panel. :)
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It's been nice to be able to go into a supply house and pick up a box of white, self-grounding TR receptacles (costing about $20) and keep them on our trucks for quick service calls and receptacle change-outs. Are we soon going to have to buy a box of AFCI receptacles at our cost of about $250 and keep them on our trucks ?

I don't see anything good coming out of this Code requirement for EC's other than the possibility of making a few more $$. However, I think there will be more EC's not complying with this Code section if they don't have to get inspected and more HO's doing their own electrical work to save a few $$.

Just my opinion.:(
 
goldstar said:
It's been nice to be able to go into a supply house and pick up a box of white, self-grounding TR receptacles (costing about $20) and keep them on our trucks for quick service calls and receptacle change-outs. Are we soon going to have to buy a box of AFCI receptacles at our cost of about $250 and keep them on our trucks ?

I don't see anything good coming out of this Code requirement for EC's other than the possibility of making a few more $$. However, I think there will be more EC's not complying with this Code section if they don't have to get inspected and more HO's doing their own electrical work to save a few $$.

Just my opinion.:(
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Well yes the customer will pay more but this is really no different than replacing a non-GFCI receptacle in a location that requires GFCI protection. As of now here in NJ the AFCI receptacle is not required, that may change when the 2017 is adopted later this year. The biggest problem I see with this is trying to jam a huge AFCI receptacle in a box that had a tiny cheapo receptacle and is already packed.
 
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