Arc fault required for service change 2014 Code

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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Speaking of AFCI receptacles, whatever happened to the requirement that they be within a given distance of the panel and with conduit?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Is there any empirical data that shows that arc fault breakers and receptacles actually prevent fires and/or save lives?
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Well yes the customer will pay more but this is really no different than replacing a non-GFCI receptacle in a location that requires GFCI protection. As of now here in NJ the AFCI receptacle is not required, that may change when the 2017 is adopted later this year. The biggest problem I see with this is trying to jam a huge AFCI receptacle in a box that had a tiny cheapo receptacle and is already packed.
Bingo !!!

I have no problem with replacing std. receptacles in a kitchen with GFCI's. That's been a requirement since 1987 although only on new construction. Besides, with respect to the degree of safety they provide, I think GFCI's provide more than AFCI's even though they are for different conditions.

I guess my gripe is with being compelled to replace receptacles with AFCI's in areas we usually never had to before simply because we are changing out a bad receptacle. I'm all for safety but I think this is overkill (no pun intended);)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It's been nice to be able to go into a supply house and pick up a box of white, self-grounding TR receptacles (costing about $20) and keep them on our trucks for quick service calls and receptacle change-outs. Are we soon going to have to buy a box of AFCI receptacles at our cost of about $250 and keep them on our trucks ?

I don't see anything good coming out of this Code requirement for EC's other than the possibility of making a few more $$. However, I think there will be more EC's not complying with this Code section if they don't have to get inspected and more HO's doing their own electrical work to save a few $$.

Just my opinion.:(

Bingo !!!

I have no problem with replacing std. receptacles in a kitchen with GFCI's. That's been a requirement since 1987 although only on new construction. Besides, with respect to the degree of safety they provide, I think GFCI's provide more than AFCI's even though they are for different conditions.

I guess my gripe is with being compelled to replace receptacles with AFCI's in areas we usually never had to before simply because we are changing out a bad receptacle. I'm all for safety but I think this is overkill (no pun intended);)
You are not the only one with some of the feelings you mentioned. There are many that participate here that are not sold on AFCI, might be an OK idea, but still has issues, then when you look at how they got put into code you have to wonder how much the manufacturers lobbied the code making panels just to make sure they are going to sell them. If they are not required, how can they get back all they put into research and development, even though they don't have a perfected product yet - and after nearly 20 years still don't. When GFCI's were introduced there were similar issues with acceptance - but those that understood how they worked still thought they were a good product, not as many saw AFCI's the same way.

This forces you to either comply with the rules or to cheat them where you feel you can, and the fact that there are others out there that will do some of those jobs at an overall lower cost because they cheat the rules makes it more difficult to be competitive to the clients. All you can do if you want to comply is market yourself on the quality of your services and pull focus away from some of the necessary costs. The whole AFCI area is still difficult to deal with though. I think many have found that wiring errors are a big factor in AFCI problems, but there are still times when the problem is with equipment that gets plugged in and yet is hard to tell customer you didn't do anything wrong when they have something that doesn't work.
 

DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
You are not the only one with some of the feelings you mentioned. There are many that participate here that are not sold on AFCI, might be an OK idea, but still has issues, then when you look at how they got put into code you have to wonder how much the manufacturers lobbied the code making panels just to make sure they are going to sell them. If they are not required, how can they get back all they put into research and development, even though they don't have a perfected product yet - and after nearly 20 years still don't. When GFCI's were introduced there were similar issues with acceptance - but those that understood how they worked still thought they were a good product, not as many saw AFCI's the same way.This forces you to either comply with the rules or to cheat them where you feel you can, and the fact that there are others out there that will do some of those jobs at an overall lower cost because they cheat the rules makes it more difficult to be competitive to the clients. All you can do if you want to comply is market yourself on the quality of your services and pull focus away from some of the necessary costs. The whole AFCI area is still difficult to deal with though. I think many have found that wiring errors are a big factor in AFCI problems, but there are still times when the problem is with equipment that gets plugged in and yet is hard to tell customer you didn't do anything wrong when they have something that doesn't work.
Have to agree with what you and Goldstar have said.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You are not the only one with some of the feelings you mentioned. There are many that participate here that are not sold on AFCI, might be an OK idea, but still has issues, then when you look at how they got put into code you have to wonder how much the manufacturers lobbied the code making panels just to make sure they are going to sell them. If they are not required, how can they get back all they put into research and development, even though they don't have a perfected product yet - and after nearly 20 years still don't. When GFCI's were introduced there were similar issues with acceptance - but those that understood how they worked still thought they were a good product, not as many saw AFCI's the same way.

This forces you to either comply with the rules or to cheat them where you feel you can, and the fact that there are others out there that will do some of those jobs at an overall lower cost because they cheat the rules makes it more difficult to be competitive to the clients. All you can do if you want to comply is market yourself on the quality of your services and pull focus away from some of the necessary costs. The whole AFCI area is still difficult to deal with though. I think many have found that wiring errors are a big factor in AFCI problems, but there are still times when the problem is with equipment that gets plugged in and yet is hard to tell customer you didn't do anything wrong when they have assomething that doesn't work.
Well articulated - as always. I'm in total agreement.
 
Afci for replacement outlets

Afci for replacement outlets

In general, most jurisdictions do not require a permit for simply swapping devices.

Should have made them separate jobs. Too late now.[/QUOTE]

The requirement is still there even if a permit isn’t issued, electricians need to take pride in they’re work. Not only for when it’s inspected.
The lawyers will have a field day with this.
 

Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
I just asked the LA County B&S about this December 2017. Adding on to a bedroom. No AFCI required for circuit extensions. Only if a new circuit is pulled from the panel. I guess this can be a locality call.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Might as well get used to afci they're here to stay

Sent from my A574BL using Tapatalk
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I just asked the LA County B&S about this December 2017. Adding on to a bedroom. No AFCI required for circuit extensions. Only if a new circuit is pulled from the panel. I guess this can be a locality call.


I'd get that one ins writing as that is not the code.
Calif code as well as NEC requires it.
The local agency CANNOT make up code, also can not make the code more lax in Calif. only more strict.
 

stangman105

New member
Location
Denver Colorado
Here's the problem I have with this and my response is not specifically Code related. When you're replacing or upgrading an electric service I don't understand why an EI would compel you to now provide either AFCI breakers or 2-P breakers for MWBC's. You're replacing like with like. The circuits have been in existence for "X" years and have functioned just fine. The presumption is that the original electrical system was inspected and Code compliant at the time it was installed. You have no idea how the circuits were run, whether they were properly grounded, how the cables were stapled or supported, etc. I think an EI would be opening up a big can of worms by requiring this. Besides, you gave your customer a price to do the work, now you have to go back and ask for more $$. Electrical contracting is competitive enough - why add another layer of ridiculous requirements to get the job ?

Just my 2 cents worth.:roll:

I couldn't agree more. I just moved the service on a 70 year old house. AN addition was built and it made more sense to put the service there. The old service had a FP panel on the back of the house that fed a small panel in the stairwell with breakers so old they barely turned on and off. Then someone had put a sub panel in a basement closet with a 200 amp main that was fed by a 50 Amp from the main panel. Neutrals were tied to grounds etc. I had not moved a panel since the 2014 code came into effect and thought the code section only referred to extending circuits to add plugs or lights.
The whole Arc fault breaker issue to me seems to be one of corporate profit margins like most things these days. There are so many nuisance tripping issues that it boggles my mind how we could be required to use something that has obviously not been perfected
I recently had a circuit in an addition that would not hold. If you turned on one set of can lights it tripped. If you plugged in but did not turn on the TV it tripped. There was a light fan combo in the bathroom and if you turned on the light it was fine but the fan tripped it. After several days of taking stuff apart and putting it back together it finally turned out to be a piece of wire that we fished in after the place was drywalled to add a plug.
I replaced that wire with a new one and voila the circuit held. I never did find anything wrong with that piece of wire
So now back to the current house which as I said is 70 years old. What the he'll am I suppose to do if the Arc faults won't hold? and how can the bldg dept justify the ramifications of that. This house is so much better off with this new panel even if it were 50 feet away from the original
Not to mention the 300 dollars someone will have to eat for the cost of the things even if they do hold.:rant:
 
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