Arc Faults & Motor loads

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mjmcdevitt

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Just finished 144 single residency units in Philadelphia. All units are protected by arc-fault breakers. I am now getting call backs because the prints showed that the hallway outlet was on the the same circuit as unit 11. Now whenever they vacuum the hallway it trips the outlets in unit 11. I have responded that this is a problem on the drawings, however they do not feel that way. Where do I fing info on this? Thanks :confused:
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

It is a code violation that should have been caught before wiring was done. and not all architects are up on the latest codes so it does kind of lands in the wireman's lap.

See 210.25 of the "2002" NEC

Also it doesn't mater as to what the drawings might say you have to wire to code.

[ November 07, 2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Maybe I'm a little confused as to what kind of building this is as I was thinking an apartment complex but after rereading your post I see the reference to AFCI's. and I don't understand what your calling a unit?
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Sounds like apartments.Yes violates nec.Also sticks unit #11 with the bill for vacuming.The inspector should have caught this but bottom line is the EC must know the code and overide the print.Did they not have a house panel for common loads?
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Actually, you have to wire what's on the prints to Code.
That means if it is draw off of unit 11, you wire it off of unit 11 and use the correct wire, support means, breaker size, etc.
(of course this is hypothetical)

You do not have the authority or permission to change drawings that were done by an engineer.

Maybe it should have been caught, but it wasn't.
There should have been a change order, but wasn't.

They would have had to pay the change before and should pay it now.
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Originally posted by mjmcdevitt:
Just finished 144 single residency units in Philadelphia. All units are protected by arc-fault breakers. I am now getting call backs because the prints showed that the hallway outlet was on the the same circuit as unit 11. Now whenever they vacuum the hallway it trips the outlets in unit 11. I have responded that this is a problem on the drawings, however they do not feel that way. Where do I fing info on this? Thanks :confused:
Click to expand...
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

These are Single Residency Occupancy (SRO) units. One person per unit. They are about 10' x 12' with a bathroom. This is low income residents in the middle of Center City Philadelphia!

The last post was correct. I can't change what is on the prints. However I will bring the code citation to the engineer. Thanks everyone :)
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

personally if the drawings aren't up to code I have never had trouble bringing it up to the engineer or design and had them to change it. It takes a little time off the job but pays of in other ways including possible law suits and insurance claims.
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

The renters are not charged for electric so "common area" code citations won't help. Thanks anyway

Matt :cool:
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

I think they just need to but a new vacuum. Why does everyone want to blame the AFCI when they should really blame the load?
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Larry, Are you saying....the common area outlet must be wired into a common area branch circuit regarded to multi-occupancy? Is there NEC non-compliance in this case?

rbj, Seattle

[ November 10, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: gndrod ]
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

mjmcdevitt,

If you installed SQ D, check to see if the AFCI breaker is part of the factory recall. :D

rbj, Seattle
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Originally posted by gndrod:
Larry, Are you saying....the common area outlet must be wired into a common area branch circuit regarded to multi-occupancy? Is there NEC non-compliance in this case?

rbj, Seattle
Click to expand...
If the units meet the def. of dwelling unit, then yes, that would be a violation of 210.25

edit add: Yes, common area branch circuits or equipment, devices, etc. cannot be fed from a dwelling unit

[ November 10, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: sandsnow ]
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

They sound more like jail cells.Just what else is on that circuit ? What is amp size OCPD.A good commercial vac might pull close to 20 amps leaving very little left.Curious if this 10 x 12 has setup for cooking does it have 2 SA CIRCUITS ?
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Originally posted by jimwalker:
They sound more like jail cells.Just what else is on that circuit ? What is amp size OCPD.A good commercial vac might pull close to 20 amps leaving very little left.Curious if this 10 x 12 has setup for cooking does it have 2 SA CIRCUITS ?
Click to expand...
We've had these in our city. Our SRO's and some limited care facilities (not nursing homes) had permanent refer/micro combo/built ins and we did require they follow the normal kitchen rules; 2 SA circ's, etc.
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

Now I see why you asked Matt if there was any food preparation areas. So Art 100 definition of dwelling unit can disqualify the common area compliance in this case? The permanent provision may be re-interpreted that there are outlets to run kitchen appliances for cooking. Yet it is a weak argument with a full time cafeteria in the facility. Oh well.

rbj, Seattle
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

If this is a code violation (and it sounds like it is), I think both you and the architect/engineer are at fault. (Don't take it personally, nobody is expected to be perfect). The drawings should not have shown that outlet on the same circuit as a dwelling unit. But there were probably notes for you to follow the NEC, and you should bring it to the engineers attention if you are being asked to do something that does not comply with the code.

Perhaps you and the architect/engineer should split the cost of changing the outlet.
 
Re: Arc Faults & Motor loads

If the building is under single meter/owner then 210.25 would not be an issue. as this is only for for rental or condo's where each units electric is billed separate. But if there are meters installed for each unit then it could be called as this points to the intention of a separate billing at a later date. As it has been said before You can only go on what's installed. Meters for each 210.25 if not then no 210.25.
 
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