Arc Flash PPE selection

[realolman]

I have been asked to look at arc flash protection for levels 0, 2, and 4 in order to give my input on what my company may want to purchase.

I would like to ask you for your input to help me form mine.

We are looking for something that is as comfortable as possible. It would be nice if we could obtain an example of each to check out, so we don't get a bunch of stuff, and then find out later we could have gotten something better.

I know I have come to the experts ( I mean that sincerely ) , and I welcome any and all input.

thank you

 

[76nemo]

I've only owned one type, Salisbury, so I'm not much help.

Zog, ohhhh Zog, where can you be???:grin:

 

[zog]

This is in the FAQ's in theis section of the forum

First answer these questions.

What PPE do you need?
Daily wear or coveralls?
What climate?
Rent/lease or buy?
Laundering? Who will do it, who will ensure it is done right?
What HRC's are you exposed to? (Voltage has little to do with it)
Any chemical exposure? That determines your material choice.
How dirty will they get, industrial or home laundering?
Any clean room requirements?
Does Made in USA matter?
Does it need to be union made?
Does price matter or do you want the best regardless of price?

All these questions and more need to be considered to get the right PPE, there are about 20 different materials out there, all with advantages and disadvantages.

However, 90% of these guys selling the PPE have no idea about the performance of the materials or the other choices, they just sell what they buy, and usually that means Indura Ultra Soft, which is a good material for alot of people. Anyone can make coveralls or flash suits out of these fabrics (Indura is made in Chicago by Westex for example), the features and quality of the PPE you buy varies greatly from one place to the other so you better do your homework.

 

[wtucker]

I'd caution against over-protecting. There's a big difference between HRC 0,2 and 4. When 70E first hit the fan, a couple of our subs went out and bought 45-cal. suits and hoods for use in all applications, even thought they mostly dealt with HRC 0 or 1 and the occasional 2*. So here's a guy opening a 120/208 panel in a suit that'd protect him if he walked through burning jet fuel. And the boss is wondering why his guys refuse to do it!

Layers are the key. And stop buying polyester blend clothing.

 

[KrisInk]

You might want to take a look at equipment manufactured by Oberon Company (New Bedford, MA). Their stuff is top of the line (and they have 3 levels of FR clothing and equipment) and they continually strive to improve it...they realize people will not wear what is not comfortable.

 

[realolman]

Thanks everyone... keep 'er comin.

I am having some difficulty understanding and finding gloves.

On the sheet given to us, it says cat 0 needs leather gloves as needed.
What the heck does that mean?

Also on Cat 0, are any safety glasses or goggles and leather gloves sufficient?

I know Salisbury has been making insulated rubber gloves forever, but on their site, they act like they never heard of gloves... I even have a pdf of their Arc flash stuff and there are work gloves specifically stated NOT to be arc flash gloves.... I don't get that either...

What gloves go with what category? Where do you find them... how do you choose them?

Thanks for the Oberon tip... I be Googlin them now.

 

[zog]

Thanks everyone... keep 'er comin.

I am having some difficulty understanding and finding gloves.

On the sheet given to us, it says cat 0 needs leather gloves as needed.
What the heck does that mean?

Also on Cat 0, are any safety glasses or goggles and leather gloves sufficient?

I know Salisbury has been making insulated rubber gloves forever, but on their site, they act like they never heard of gloves... I even have a pdf of their Arc flash stuff and there are work gloves specifically stated NOT to be arc flash gloves.... I don't get that either...

What gloves go with what category? Where do you find them... how do you choose them?

Thanks for the Oberon tip... I be Googlin them now.

Has your facility done an arc flash study? Is one planned? Have you verified you can be using the tables per the notes limitiations on the tables?

You don't want arc flash gloves, they almost always get misapplied by people that don;t understand the analysis and are impossible to apply if you are using the tables. You just want to use the leather protectors that come with the rubber gloves, and the AN would apply if the workers hands are within the arc flash boundary.

Oberon does make good stuff but until you answer all the questions I posted there is no way to know what is the best choice for your people. I suspect that post is a sales pitch, the way it was worded and being the 1st post ever here.

Slow down a little bit, answer my questions and I will walk you through this. I have no connection with any PPE manufactures but spent 10 evaluating everything on the market. I am sure Hugh will find this post, he knows more about the different materials than any earthling really should

 

[realolman]

Has your facility done an arc flash study? Is one planned? Have you verified you can be using the tables per the notes limitiations on the tables?

You don't want arc flash gloves, they almost always get misapplied by people that don;t understand the analysis and are impossible to apply if you are using the tables. You just want to use the leather protectors that come with the rubber gloves, and the AN would apply if the workers hands are within the arc flash boundary.

Oberon does make good stuff but until you answer all the questions I posted there is no way to know what is the best choice for your people. I suspect that post is a sales pitch, the way it was worded and being the 1st post ever here.

Slow down a little bit, answer my questions and I will walk you through this. I have no connection with any PPE manufactures but spent 10 evaluating everything on the market. I am sure Hugh will find this post, he knows more about the different materials than any earthling really should

Study is done.
All electrical panels etc. have labels with HRC and other info on them

What PPE do you need? that's what we're trying to figure out. Does personal protective equipment mean a set for each each person, or one set for 10 guys? I think in the case of the Cat 4 probably just a couple suits.

Daily wear or coveralls? I think catagory 0 is daily wear. I think coveralls would probably be more appropriate on other levels.

What climate? hot as heck last couple weeks. ...always indoors

Rent/lease or buy? buy

Laundering? Who will do it, who will ensure it is done right? Well that's a good question. We have a laundry service that does our usual uniforms and they have done other things that did not belong to them in the past.

What HRC's are you exposed to? (Voltage has little to do with it)We have a bunch of Cat 0 a number of 4 and a couple dangerous. I imagine there are others in between. My boss wants to look into 0, 2 and 4
.
Any chemical exposure? That determines your material choice. I would say no, not as a rule.



How dirty will they get, industrial or home laundering? I hope not home laundering... is the employer not responsible to provide PPE at no charge to employees... I would say no charge included laundering

Any clean room requirements? No
Does Made in USA matter? I'd prefer it, but what are you gonna do?

Does it need to be union made?Same answer

matter or do you want the best regardless of price? At this point best, and most comfortable. that may need to be modified later. Generally, money seems to not be a problem.

thanks

 

[zog]

Study is done.
All electrical panels etc. have labels with HRC and other info on them

Usually you forget about the HRC's after a study is done and the actual PPE required is put on the labels.

[What PPE do you need? that's what we're trying to figure out. Does personal protective equipment mean a set for each each person, or one set for 10 guys? I think in the case of the Cat 4 probably just a couple suits.

Hard to answer without knowing your facility and there is no real rule, most plants will issue HRC 2 kits to everyone who is deemed "qualified" and have HRC 4 suits available at strategic locations.

[Daily wear or coveralls? I think catagory 0 is daily wear. I think coveralls would probably be more appropriate on other levels.

Depends on the job requirements, how often energized work is done, how enfocement is going to be addressed, etc.. Daily wear is much more comfortable and easier to enforce the use of. But having a 8cal shirt and pants on does not equal HRC 2, you still need the other stuff, that gets lost in translation sometimes. Seems the best solution is HRC kits for most people.

[What climate? hot as heck last couple weeks. ...always indoors

That makes it easier, you can really get into some expensive fabrics for outdoor work, both cold and hot.

[Rent/lease or buy? buy

Think of how to track condition of the PPE, need to have an inspection program.

[Laundering? Who will do it, who will ensure it is done right? Well that's a good question. We have a laundry service that does our usual uniforms and they have done other things that did not belong to them in the past.

Good, many companies like Cintas offer special programs for arc rated PPE, but you need to be sure the stuff does not ever get mixed up.

[What HRC's are you exposed to? (Voltage has little to do with it)We have a bunch of Cat 0 a number of 4 and a couple dangerous. I imagine there are others in between. My boss wants to look into 0, 2 and 4

One huge mistake people make is buying PPE before looking at mitigation options for those 4 and dangerous areas.

[

.
Any chemical exposure? That determines your material choice. I would say no, not as a rule.



How dirty will they get, industrial or home laundering? I hope not home laundering... is the employer not responsible to provide PPE at no charge to employees... I would say no charge included laundering

Any clean room requirements? No
Does Made in USA matter? I'd prefer it, but what are you gonna do?

Does it need to be union made?Same answer

matter or do you want the best regardless of price? At this point best, and most comfortable. that may need to be modified later. Generally, money seems to not be a problem.

thanks

Money will be a problem so lets ignore that statement. I would start with Indura Ultra Soft, made by Westex. Many different companies make PPE out of this fabric, it is USA made, comfortable, pretty inexpensive, likely the best value for what your needs are. Go to www.westex.com and you can order a package for free that has samples of all thier different blends to put your hands on. If that seems like what you are looking for I will recommend a some manufacturers.

Don't just buy the stuff from some on line safety store, there is actually a lot of counterfiet stuff floating around the internet.

 

[realolman]

Usually you forget about the HRC's after a study is done and the actual PPE required is put on the labels.



Hard to answer without knowing your facility and there is no real rule, most plants will issue HRC 2 kits to everyone who is deemed "qualified" and have HRC 4 suits available at strategic locations.



Depends on the job requirements, how often energized work is done, how enfocement is going to be addressed, etc.. Daily wear is much more comfortable and easier to enforce the use of. But having a 8cal shirt and pants on does not equal HRC 2, you still need the other stuff, that gets lost in translation sometimes. Seems the best solution is HRC kits for most people.

That makes it easier, you can really get into some expensive fabrics for outdoor work, both cold and hot.

Think of how to track condition of the PPE, need to have an inspection program.

Good, many companies like Cintas offer special programs for arc rated PPE, but you need to be sure the stuff does not ever get mixed up.

One huge mistake people make is buying PPE before looking at mitigation options for those 4 and dangerous areas.



Money will be a problem so lets ignore that statement. I would start with Indura Ultra Soft, made by Westex. Many different companies make PPE out of this fabric, it is USA made, comfortable, pretty inexpensive, likely the best value for what your needs are. Go to www.westex.com and you can order a package for free that has samples of all thier different blends to put your hands on. If that seems like what you are looking for I will recommend a some manufacturers.

Don't just buy the stuff from some on line safety store, there is actually a lot of counterfiet stuff floating around the internet.

You have the expertise... I would much prefer you just recommended some specific kits, including gloves for the 2 and 4... and tell me what is required for 0.

I saw some Salisbury overpants and jackets I thought might be OK for the 2

... I think that for the most part it's just gonna be wearing the stuff till it's verified de energized.


the same co. that did the study is coming back to recommend mitigation options

 

[zog]

You have the expertise... I would much prefer you just recommended some specific kits, including gloves for the 2 and 4... and tell me what is required for 0.

I saw some Salisbury overpants and jackets I thought might be OK for the 2

Order the samples, it will let your guys give thier input to the materials and make them feel part of the process. I have a sample set I can send you if you prefer.

... I think that for the most part it's just gonna be wearing the stuff till it's verified de energized.

Yep, you get the big picture better than most do.

the same co. that did the study is coming back to recommend mitigation options

Well be careful there, many companies either are limitied on knowledge of possible mitigation solutions or only will offer what thier company can do. Here is a brief presentation I did for EPRI on mitigation, pretty basic but gives you an idea of solutions, I can expand on any of that stuff.
http://www.cbsnuclear.com/free-information.htm

 

[realolman]

Order the samples, it will let your guys give thier input to the materials and make them feel part of the process. I have a sample set I can send you if you prefer.

Yep, you get the big picture better than most do.



Well be careful there, many companies either are limitied on knowledge of possible mitigation solutions or only will offer what thier company can do. Here is a brief presentation I did for EPRI on mitigation, pretty basic but gives you an idea of solutions, I can expand on any of that stuff.
http://www.cbsnuclear.com/free-information.htm

It seems to me there aren't many real choices anyway... it's pretty much being sure you have everything you're supposed to have to be in compliance... ie you mentioned the 2 shirt and pants not being sufficient... what else is needed for a hrc2?

....at this point I really need specifics .

 

[ron]

Here is a brief presentation I did for EPRI on mitigation, pretty basic but gives you an idea of solutions, I can expand on any of that stuff.

Nice presentation Zog!

 

[zog]

It seems to me there aren't many real choices anyway... it's pretty much being sure you have everything you're supposed to have to be in compliance... ie you mentioned the 2 shirt and pants not being sufficient... what else is needed for a hrc2?

....at this point I really need specifics .

Like I said, Class E hard hat, arc rated faceshield, head sock, hearing protection, safety glasses (Think that is it, just going off the top of my head early Sat AM)

 

[zog]

....at this point I really need specifics .

There are dozens of choices of materials and hundreds of choices of manufactures (Some are great, some are horrible, 8cal/cm2 Indura coveralls may all seem the same but the features and quality of the actual garment varies greatly), I don't even know where you are so hard to do.

If you have a uniform company like Cintas that you are planning on using to launder your FR clothing then I would not purchase, I would lease them, they have several programs and they carry Indura Ultra Soft garments.

Or you can purchase direct http://www.salisburybyhoneywell.com/en-US/Pages/default.aspx by clicking on find a distributor and they will come out and help you get set up. It seems like the HRC 2 kit is what you need. For your HRC 4 get the 40cal/cm2 suit, send the extra couple hundred bucks for the 4 layer version, desginated by "LT" in the part#, makes a huge difference in comfort and coolness. Here is the catalog http://www.salisburybyhoneywell.com/en-US/industrial/afclothing/Case Studies/arc_flash_clothing.pdf

 

[zog]

Like I mentioned earlier, there is a lot of junk out there being peddled by people that have no idea about the gaments performance criteria. Hugh Hoagland has done more testing than anyone and has a list of companies that provide the highest quality PPE, no one on this list paid to get on this list, just the recommendations of the guy who knows best.

http://arcwear.com/clothing/clothing.php

 

[realolman]

There are dozens of choices of materials and hundreds of choices of manufactures (Some are great, some are horrible, 8cal/cm2 Indura coveralls may all seem the same but the features and quality of the actual garment varies greatly), I don't even know where you are so hard to do.

Name one example of a great 2 kit and a great 4 kit with gloves for each.

 

[zog]

Name one example of a great 2 kit and a great 4 kit with gloves for each.

If you read my whole post you will see I provided links and sepcific examples of both.

 

[realolman]

You gave me no answers about anything.

You gave me no answers about anything.

If you read my whole post you will see I provided links and sepcific examples of both.

I did read your posts... you did nothing of the kind.


In the trade, at some point, somebody is going to have to bend some conduit, pull some wire, and turn some screws. You can sit around and talk about it all you want...somebody is going to have to order some panels and breakers... providing links to Siemans or square D is not the same as making a material list.

I suppose you want to be paid for that... that's fine... but if you're not going to make specific recommendations or answer questions specifically, please say so.

You spouted off about your presentations... I don't give a fig about your presentations

You provided a link to some guy who is supposed to be some guru of PPE.... all that is is a site with pictures of that guy looking wise... purveying his wisdom to the fortunate unwashed masses.; and contains a list of more links to manufacturers... I found those myself

You gave me a big list of questions which I answered, with no specifics forthcoming from you.

You can blow that blather past the people in the conference rooms all you want... I am not stupid.... I know when I get an answer and when I don't... and I have not gotten any answers from you.

If you do not want to provide the number, or model, or name of a specific kit, just say so... or quit responding to the posts... maybe someone else will actually help.

 

[zog]

Are you kidding me???? That was the rudest most ungrateful post I have ever read on this forum. First I don't get paid anything anymore to do any of this stuff. I gave you a link to the catalog and told you which kit to order, even was specific about the LT in the part number, but I don't know what size your guys are so it is pretty hard to give specific numbers.

I answered all of your questions as much as is possible with the information you provided, I offer to send you my own personal material sample kit, I basically did your job that you were assigned by your employer and you respond with an attack like that?