joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
- Thread starter joe tedesco
- Start date
- Status
Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Joe
Is the a black wire under the red wirenut?
Is this box "grounded"?
Can't answer your question about green but doesn't 250.114 (1993 NEC) apply? Does a wirenut qualify as "joining" the egc's?
Mike P.
Joe
Is the a black wire under the red wirenut?
Is this box "grounded"?
Can't answer your question about green but doesn't 250.114 (1993 NEC) apply? Does a wirenut qualify as "joining" the egc's?
Mike P.
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Joe I would say no, I have for 22 years pigtailed my grounds then either put a yellow, red, or blue wirenut on the pigtailed wires. But you are "THE JOE TEDESCO"
, which by the way I am a big fan of, I read your articles, and have learned a lot from you, but tell me is my practice a violation of NEC rules.
Joe I would say no, I have for 22 years pigtailed my grounds then either put a yellow, red, or blue wirenut on the pigtailed wires. But you are "THE JOE TEDESCO"
, which by the way I am a big fan of, I read your articles, and have learned a lot from you, but tell me is my practice a violation of NEC rules. gregoryelectricinc
Senior Member
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Joe, I don't beleive the wire nut is "required" to be green for ground wires. The green wire should speak for itself . However, in looking @ your photo, does anyone elese see a box-fill issue??
Ok, I looked again. I didn't notice its a 4 11/16" box so I was wrong about the fill issue.
[ September 19, 2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: gregoryelectricinc ]
Joe, I don't beleive the wire nut is "required" to be green for ground wires. The green wire should speak for itself
. However, in looking @ your photo, does anyone elese see a box-fill issue??Ok, I looked again. I didn't notice its a 4 11/16" box so I was wrong about the fill issue.
[ September 19, 2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: gregoryelectricinc ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Joe,
The green wire nuts are listed for grounding use only, but all listed wire nuts are suitable for the termination of EGCs. There was a UL statement on this subject about a year ago. I don't have the link any more.
Don
Joe,
The green wire nuts are listed for grounding use only, but all listed wire nuts are suitable for the termination of EGCs. There was a UL statement on this subject about a year ago. I don't have the link any more.
Don
dana1028
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Wirenut Connector for EGC
Discussion by Mike Holt
Q8. Some inspectors are requiring green colored wirenuts when splicing equipment-grounding conductors. Are they right?
[I deleted the Ideal Indus. response]
UL Response
Mike ? I?d like to respond to your inquiry to UL regarding the use of twist-on type wire connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors. I believe that to properly answer this inquiry we need to reference requirements in both the NEC and the guide information which UL provides for listed products.
Sec. 250-8 of the NEC indicates that grounding conductors shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Pressure wire connectors are listed under the category of Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs (UL Guide ZMVV). A ?twist-on? connector is a type of pressure cable connector that is tested to the UL Standard for Splicing Wire Connectors, UL486C. The requirements for these connectors include mechanical securement tests, as well as their ability to carry continuous current within acceptable temperature limits. Listed products in this category are identified by the words ?Wire Connector? (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container. Based on this information, a listed ?Wire Connector,? including the twist-on type, should be suitable for connecting equipment grounding conductors. There was also some question regarding the color of the connector insulation. Listed insulated twist-on type wire connectors are typically provided in a variety of insulation colors, however, to the best of our knowledge we have not listed a wire connector with green color insulation.
NEC Sec. 250-119 requires covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors to have a green or green with yellow stripes outer finish, but there is no NEC requirement for the color of the insulation of a wire connector used to connect equipment grounding conductors.
NEC Sec. 250-8 also permits ?other listed means? for connecting grounding conductors. UL has a category for Grounding and Bonding Equipment (UL Guide KDER). Grounding Connectors are a special type of connector that is tested to the UL467 Standard for Grounding and Bonding Equipment. The requirements for grounding connectors include mechanical securement tests, but unlike wire connectors, these connectors are not subjected to a continuous current test. In lieu of this test, there is a special short time current test in UL467 to show the ability of a grounding connector to safely conduct fault current. There are some listed twist-on type connectors with green color insulation that are listed as grounding connectors. Listed products in this category are identified by the words ?Grounding Connector? (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container.
It should be noted that grounding connectors are only used for connecting grounding conductors, and unlike listed wire connectors, cannot be used to connect current carrying conductors (including grounded and ungrounded conductors). There are some listed Wire Connectors of the twist-on type that are also tested and complementary listed as Grounding Connectors, and the listing mark information for these products will identify them as both. The insulation on these connectors (with both listings) can be various colors, except green. We understand that some jurisdictional authorities may require listed grounding connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors, and some may require only those with green insulation, and this is certainly permitted by Sec. 90-4 of the NEC. To satisfy this need, the listing categories of ?Grounding Connectors?, and ?Wire Connectors complementary listed as Grounding Connectors? were established for the manufacturers of these products.
I apologize for this somewhat lengthy explanation, but I believe this detailed information is helpful to those who are interested in understanding the rationale behind product requirements and listings of this type. We at UL are always interested in ways to improve our service to the electrical community, and if you or your readers have any suggestions in this regard, please let us know.
Regards, David Dini, P.E. Sr. Research Engineer Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Northbrook, Illinois Phone: 847 664-2982 Fax: 847 509-6285 Email: David.A.Dini@us.ul.com </ym/Compose?To=David.A.Dini@us.ul.com&YY=9037&order=down&sort=date&pos=0>
Mike Holt's Comment: Thank you Dave for taking the time to resolve this issue.
Wirenut Connector for EGC
Discussion by Mike Holt
Q8. Some inspectors are requiring green colored wirenuts when splicing equipment-grounding conductors. Are they right?
[I deleted the Ideal Indus. response]
UL Response
Mike ? I?d like to respond to your inquiry to UL regarding the use of twist-on type wire connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors. I believe that to properly answer this inquiry we need to reference requirements in both the NEC and the guide information which UL provides for listed products.
Sec. 250-8 of the NEC indicates that grounding conductors shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Pressure wire connectors are listed under the category of Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs (UL Guide ZMVV). A ?twist-on? connector is a type of pressure cable connector that is tested to the UL Standard for Splicing Wire Connectors, UL486C. The requirements for these connectors include mechanical securement tests, as well as their ability to carry continuous current within acceptable temperature limits. Listed products in this category are identified by the words ?Wire Connector? (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container. Based on this information, a listed ?Wire Connector,? including the twist-on type, should be suitable for connecting equipment grounding conductors. There was also some question regarding the color of the connector insulation. Listed insulated twist-on type wire connectors are typically provided in a variety of insulation colors, however, to the best of our knowledge we have not listed a wire connector with green color insulation.
NEC Sec. 250-119 requires covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors to have a green or green with yellow stripes outer finish, but there is no NEC requirement for the color of the insulation of a wire connector used to connect equipment grounding conductors.
NEC Sec. 250-8 also permits ?other listed means? for connecting grounding conductors. UL has a category for Grounding and Bonding Equipment (UL Guide KDER). Grounding Connectors are a special type of connector that is tested to the UL467 Standard for Grounding and Bonding Equipment. The requirements for grounding connectors include mechanical securement tests, but unlike wire connectors, these connectors are not subjected to a continuous current test. In lieu of this test, there is a special short time current test in UL467 to show the ability of a grounding connector to safely conduct fault current. There are some listed twist-on type connectors with green color insulation that are listed as grounding connectors. Listed products in this category are identified by the words ?Grounding Connector? (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container.
It should be noted that grounding connectors are only used for connecting grounding conductors, and unlike listed wire connectors, cannot be used to connect current carrying conductors (including grounded and ungrounded conductors). There are some listed Wire Connectors of the twist-on type that are also tested and complementary listed as Grounding Connectors, and the listing mark information for these products will identify them as both. The insulation on these connectors (with both listings) can be various colors, except green. We understand that some jurisdictional authorities may require listed grounding connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors, and some may require only those with green insulation, and this is certainly permitted by Sec. 90-4 of the NEC. To satisfy this need, the listing categories of ?Grounding Connectors?, and ?Wire Connectors complementary listed as Grounding Connectors? were established for the manufacturers of these products.
I apologize for this somewhat lengthy explanation, but I believe this detailed information is helpful to those who are interested in understanding the rationale behind product requirements and listings of this type. We at UL are always interested in ways to improve our service to the electrical community, and if you or your readers have any suggestions in this regard, please let us know.
Regards, David Dini, P.E. Sr. Research Engineer Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Northbrook, Illinois Phone: 847 664-2982 Fax: 847 509-6285 Email: David.A.Dini@us.ul.com </ym/Compose?To=David.A.Dini@us.ul.com&YY=9037&order=down&sort=date&pos=0>
Mike Holt's Comment: Thank you Dave for taking the time to resolve this issue.
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Mike P.
I would judge the the color of the black wire is most likely a bare copper wire because of it size. And, there may be a screw bonding it to the back of the box behind all those wires.
Has anybody counted wires? That box sure looks as if it is crammed full.
Mike P.
I would judge the the color of the black wire is most likely a bare copper wire because of it size. And, there may be a screw bonding it to the back of the box behind all those wires.
Has anybody counted wires? That box sure looks as if it is crammed full.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
It is not full, it still has KOs left.
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
If you measure one of the yellow wirenuts and the box you'll see the box is four yellow wirenuts long. A yellow wirenut in real life(picked from the assortment on my dresser) measures one inch. So I would say it's a 4" box. But maybe it had an extension to comply with box fill.
I remember a thread somewhere a while back where I believe the green wirenut issue was pretty much agreed upon that any color was ok. I have never seen a fixture supplied with a green wirenut, they always give you three all the same color.
If you measure one of the yellow wirenuts and the box you'll see the box is four yellow wirenuts long. A yellow wirenut in real life(picked from the assortment on my dresser) measures one inch. So I would say it's a 4" box. But maybe it had an extension to comply with box fill.
I remember a thread somewhere a while back where I believe the green wirenut issue was pretty much agreed upon that any color was ok. I have never seen a fixture supplied with a green wirenut, they always give you three all the same color.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Green can only be used on grounds.
Any color can be used on grounds.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
This answered is warranted to be free of defects or your money back.
No. No NEC requirement for EGC wirenuts to be GREEN.
Green can only be used on grounds.
Any color can be used on grounds.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
This answered is warranted to be free of defects or your money back.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Joe
It is funny that you posted this, I did a presentation for some contractors on monday (Sept 15th) on how to use the UL White Book with the NEC.
I was looking through the Ideal catalog and noticed the UL listing for wirenuts is 486, and saw the green wirenut listing was 467. So I called Ideal and here is what Ideal said.
The red, yellow , gray and blue wirenuts ARE NOT LISTED FOR GROUNDING PURPOSES! We talked a little longer, so I asked if the copper barrels/crimps were listed for grounding purposes, and they said NO!
I was surprised to say the least, I have done this for years, not being aware of it. So I said to them why don't you state that in your catalog. They said that they do not have the space to write down all of the things you cannot do with the wirenuts.. HMMM... They did say the catalog is not misleading, because all of the pictures, including the crimps show the wirenuts with NO GREEN OR BARE CONDUCTORS. So much for my being observant in the past, they are correct about that. Also the catalog does not say you can use the wirenuts for grounding purposes.
In the Buchannan catalog this is a little more apparent. there is a picture of the colored wirenuts, and a green one with bare conductors in it.
The listing is printed this way -
" UL 486c listed (Green-B UL 467 Listed) and CSA 22.2 # 188 certified; comply with Federal Specification -S-610E
I am still not sure what to think about it. How about some comments.
Pierre
Joe
It is funny that you posted this, I did a presentation for some contractors on monday (Sept 15th) on how to use the UL White Book with the NEC.
I was looking through the Ideal catalog and noticed the UL listing for wirenuts is 486, and saw the green wirenut listing was 467. So I called Ideal and here is what Ideal said.
The red, yellow , gray and blue wirenuts ARE NOT LISTED FOR GROUNDING PURPOSES! We talked a little longer, so I asked if the copper barrels/crimps were listed for grounding purposes, and they said NO!
I was surprised to say the least, I have done this for years, not being aware of it. So I said to them why don't you state that in your catalog. They said that they do not have the space to write down all of the things you cannot do with the wirenuts.. HMMM... They did say the catalog is not misleading, because all of the pictures, including the crimps show the wirenuts with NO GREEN OR BARE CONDUCTORS. So much for my being observant in the past, they are correct about that. Also the catalog does not say you can use the wirenuts for grounding purposes.
In the Buchannan catalog this is a little more apparent. there is a picture of the colored wirenuts, and a green one with bare conductors in it.
The listing is printed this way -
" UL 486c listed (Green-B UL 467 Listed) and CSA 22.2 # 188 certified; comply with Federal Specification -S-610E
I am still not sure what to think about it. How about some comments.
Pierre
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Pierre,
The 467 listing is for "grounding only" and cannot be used for circuit conductors. Mike had a newsletter about this subject, but I can't locate it. It had a letter from UL and it said that standard wirenuts are suitable for both circuit and grounding conductors. (maybe someone has a copy of this newletter or a link to it)
The standard wirenuts are carrying the same current as the grounding wirenuts under fault conditions. It would be unreasonable to say that these wire nuts are suitable to supply the current into the fault, but not conduct it back to the source to clear the fault.
Don
Pierre,
The 467 listing is for "grounding only" and cannot be used for circuit conductors. Mike had a newsletter about this subject, but I can't locate it. It had a letter from UL and it said that standard wirenuts are suitable for both circuit and grounding conductors. (maybe someone has a copy of this newletter or a link to it)
The standard wirenuts are carrying the same current as the grounding wirenuts under fault conditions. It would be unreasonable to say that these wire nuts are suitable to supply the current into the fault, but not conduct it back to the source to clear the fault.
Don
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
Following is from a product manager at Ideal:
From: William.Blaha@idealindustries.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 6:03 AM
To: tom@psetraining.com
Cc: Ken.Nelson@idealindustries.com; 'Tom Baker'
Subject: RE: Wire Nuts
Tom, the use of a connector, grounding or current carrying, depends on the UL listing.
The following IDEAL connectors are UL listed for grounding and can be used in grounding applications:
#1. Twist-on 30-092 Greenie
#2. Crimp type 30-408, 410, 411, and 412
#3. AL/CU type 30-060
#4. Push-In 30-084 through 30-690 and 30-012 through 30-018
#5. Term-A-Nut 30-3180
The following IDEAL connectors are UL listed for current carrying and can be used on current carrying applications:
#1. Twist-On "Wire-Nut 30-071 through 30-076, Wing-Nut 30-451 through 30-454, and Twister 30-341 &
342.
#2. Speciality twist-on 30-063 (direct burial) and 30-065
(AL/CU)
#3. Crimp type 30-408, 410, 411, and 412
#4. Push-In 30-084 through 30-690 and 30-012 through 30-018
#5. Term-A-Nut 30-30-3150 through 3173
The only connectors that are listed for both grounding and current carrying and can be used for both grounding and current carrying applications are:
#1. Crimp type 30-408, 410, 411, and 412
#2. AL/CU type 30-060
#3. Push-In 30-084 through 30-690 and 30-012 through 30-018
The IDEAL Green grounding connector 30-092 has a hole in the end of the connector and will not pass the UL "Splicing Wire Connector Standard 486C" for current carrying applications.
I hope this information helps.
. . . Bill Blaha
Following is from a product manager at Ideal:
From: William.Blaha@idealindustries.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 6:03 AM
To: tom@psetraining.com
Cc: Ken.Nelson@idealindustries.com; 'Tom Baker'
Subject: RE: Wire Nuts
Tom, the use of a connector, grounding or current carrying, depends on the UL listing.
The following IDEAL connectors are UL listed for grounding and can be used in grounding applications:
#1. Twist-on 30-092 Greenie
#2. Crimp type 30-408, 410, 411, and 412
#3. AL/CU type 30-060
#4. Push-In 30-084 through 30-690 and 30-012 through 30-018
#5. Term-A-Nut 30-3180
The following IDEAL connectors are UL listed for current carrying and can be used on current carrying applications:
#1. Twist-On "Wire-Nut 30-071 through 30-076, Wing-Nut 30-451 through 30-454, and Twister 30-341 &
342.
#2. Speciality twist-on 30-063 (direct burial) and 30-065
(AL/CU)
#3. Crimp type 30-408, 410, 411, and 412
#4. Push-In 30-084 through 30-690 and 30-012 through 30-018
#5. Term-A-Nut 30-30-3150 through 3173
The only connectors that are listed for both grounding and current carrying and can be used for both grounding and current carrying applications are:
#1. Crimp type 30-408, 410, 411, and 412
#2. AL/CU type 30-060
#3. Push-In 30-084 through 30-690 and 30-012 through 30-018
The IDEAL Green grounding connector 30-092 has a hole in the end of the connector and will not pass the UL "Splicing Wire Connector Standard 486C" for current carrying applications.
I hope this information helps.
. . . Bill Blaha
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Are the wirenuts for EGC's supposed to be green?
I did a newsletter search for
green wire nut
and it found nothing.
I must be doing something wrong as those terms should have brought back a lot of results.
Here's the search page:
http://www.mikeholt.com/searchsite.php
Let me know if you figure out how to search with more than one word. Sorry to be so dense.
PS: These search strings don't work for me either:
green wire
green nut
wire nut
green code
nut code
nut case
[ September 20, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
I did a newsletter search for
green wire nut
and it found nothing.
I must be doing something wrong as those terms should have brought back a lot of results.
Here's the search page:
http://www.mikeholt.com/searchsite.php
Let me know if you figure out how to search with more than one word. Sorry to be so dense.
PS: These search strings don't work for me either:
green wire
green nut
wire nut
green code
nut code
nut case
[ September 20, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
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