Article 680 Question

Ravenvalor

Ravenvalor

Senior Member
Location
Piedmont region of NC
I would like to feed an above ground swimming pool motor and the required convenience receptacle (above deck) from a storage building panel about 30' away. The storage building feeder is 240-volts, 60-amps. It has 2 - hots and 1 - neutral but it does not have an equipment grounding conductor with the feeder. Instead it has a ground rod with a #6 solid copper wire for the grounds inside the panel.
Is there something in article 680 that prevents me from using this panel for a swimming pool motor and convenience receptacle? It does seem like it would pass code but I am not finding anything in 680 to confirm my biases.

Thanks for the helpful advice...
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Off the top of my head I would say no especially since that was the problem they had in Raleigh when the teen lifeguard was killed while skimming the water on her first day of work. The feeder was 3 wire, got broken and repaired poorly. You obviously don't know the condition of those wires so I would not touch it.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
If the shed was wired before the requirement for a 4-wire feed, and the panel is bonded, I don't see anything wrong with feeding the receptacles from it. Of course make sure the panel is bonded and run an EGC. Also use GFCI protection for the receptacles.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Little Bill said:
If the shed was wired before the requirement for a 4-wire feed, and the panel is bonded, I don't see anything wrong with feeding the receptacles from it. Of course make sure the panel is bonded and run an EGC. Also use GFCI protection for the receptacles.
Click to expand...
It sounds like the shed panel has the EGC's bonded to the ground rod but the neutral is not bonded. If that is the case the shed panel is very dangerous.
 
Ravenvalor

Ravenvalor

Senior Member
Location
Piedmont region of NC
curt swartz said:
It sounds like the shed panel has the EGC's bonded to the ground rod but the neutral is not bonded. If that is the case the shed panel is very dangerous.
Click to expand...
This is exactly the case. The neutral is not bonded. The ECGs are bonded to the panel and the ground rod. I have to admit that I was not aware that the neutral needs to be bonded as well. Similar to a service panel.

Thanks for the eye opener.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Ravenvalor said:
This is exactly the case. The neutral is not bonded. The ECGs are bonded to the panel and the ground rod. I have to admit that I was not aware that the neutral needs to be bonded as well. Similar to a service panel.

Thanks for the eye opener.
Click to expand...
If there had been an EGC ran with the feeder, then the neutral wouldn't be bonded. Since no EGC was ran, the shed panel is treated as a service with the neutral and EGC bonded. Shouldn't be hard to make that happen.
 
Ravenvalor

Ravenvalor

Senior Member
Location
Piedmont region of NC
Little Bill said:
If there had been an EGC ran with the feeder, then the neutral wouldn't be bonded. Since no EGC was ran, the shed panel is treated as a service with the neutral and EGC bonded. Shouldn't be hard to make that happen.
Click to expand...
In your opinion, would it be safe enough to feed a swimming pool pump motor and a convenience receptacle? The customer thinks that the original owner installed the feeder in 1993. It is running 6' away from and parallel to the swimming pool, so if it starts leaking current for whatever reason....
I do own an underground cable fault locator that may shed some light on the condition of the cable. But even if the cable is in pristine condition, Is it considered best practices to feed a swimming pool pump motor and convenience receptacle from a building that is being fed by a feeder that has no ground? I guess one can argue that it's done all the time when coming from the home service panel.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Ravenvalor said:
In your opinion, would it be safe enough to feed a swimming pool pump motor and a convenience receptacle? The customer thinks that the original owner installed the feeder in 1993. It is running 6' away from and parallel to the swimming pool, so if it starts leaking current for whatever reason....
I do own an underground cable fault locator that may shed some light on the condition of the cable. But even if the cable is in pristine condition, Is it considered best practices to feed a swimming pool pump motor and convenience receptacle from a building that is being fed by a feeder that has no ground? I guess one can argue that it's done all the time when coming from the home service panel.
Click to expand...
I would not even think about supplying anything associated with a pool from that panel.
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Ravenvalor said:
I would like to feed an above ground swimming pool motor and the required convenience receptacle (above deck) from a storage building panel about 30' away. The storage building feeder is 240-volts, 60-amps. It has 2 - hots and 1 - neutral but it does not have an equipment grounding conductor with the feeder. Instead it has a ground rod with a #6 solid copper wire for the grounds inside the panel.
Is there something in article 680 that prevents me from using this panel for a swimming pool motor and convenience receptacle? It does seem like it would pass code but I am not finding anything in 680 to confirm my biases.

Thanks for the helpful advice...
Click to expand...

Is the above ground swimming pool motor 120v or 240 volt?
Is there anything in the storage building that requires 240 volts?

JAP>
 
E

Earthed

Member
Location
Ohio
Occupation
Electrical Inspector, Plumbing Inspector, Residential Building Official
Little Bill said:
If the shed was wired before the requirement for a 4-wire feed, and the panel is bonded, I don't see anything wrong with feeding the receptacles from it. Of course make sure the panel is bonded and run an EGC. Also use GFCI protection for the receptacles.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Nothing unsafe IF you properly install GFCI protection for the receptacles (as required).
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Ravenvalor said:
If I knew what condition the feeder was in and if it was not running in the ground only 6' away from the pool and if it was in conduit I would lean towards using it.
Click to expand...

How would anyone actually know all of this about any underground feeder?

JAP>
 
Sberry

Sberry

Senior Member
Location
Brethren, MI
Occupation
farmer electrician
I would not even think about supplying anything associated with a pool from that panel.
Click to expand...
I agree, maybe it could be made safe maybe not but would be an absolute pizzing match if it ever came down to it. We are already starting out faulty, no bond on a 3 wire feed panel, cant isolate,,, or insulate the ground conductor.
I dont say anything in the store isles unless a nice lady needs help with a dryer, but 2 different times I have, 1 being the guy helping my idiot neighbor with some kind of genset backfeed and another some kid helping a diy type with some stuff for a hot tub, jeez, they cant decide on what voltage it is and I ask the guy,,, is this a place you feel confident for a first timer diy wire job, pool with you and family in it??? ha
 
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