Article 701 - Legally Required System vs Optional Stand-by System

[Shujinko]

I have a government project, where the agency has a design criteria document which requires the HVAC system to be on emergency stand-by power. This is not a code requirement, it is however the government agency requirement. Per the letter of the code could this HVAC system be placed on a Legally Required ATS per Article 701 or would it have to be on an optional stand-by system per Article 702?

 

[gadfly56]

I have a government project, where the agency has a design criteria document which requires the HVAC system to be on emergency stand-by power. This is not a code requirement, it is however the government agency requirement. Per the letter of the code could this HVAC system be placed on a Legally Required ATS per Article 701 or would it have to be on an optional stand-by system per Article 702?

As I see it, this would be dealer's choice. I would RFI your point of contact, because the installation and performance requirements are different and will lead to significant cost differences.

 

[charlie b]

Let me split a hair here.

. . . which requires the HVAC system to be on emergency stand-by power.

That is a contradiction in terms. Is it "emergency" or is it "stand-by"? Does the government agency's document explicitly use this language? If so, then I agree that an RFI is in order. But I will add that article 700 defines "emergency" in terms of what any governing body declares to warrant that treatment. So it is possible that the document does intend you to apply article 700 methods.

 

[Strathead]

As I see it, this would be dealer's choice. I would RFI your point of contact, because the installation and performance requirements are different and will lead to significant cost differences.

I disagree respectfully. Unless the HVAC is in question is essential for safety to human life, it can't be on the article 700 Emergency System. Once that is accepted then it is dealer's choice. The Governmental agency has the right to determine they require an article 701 legally required standby system, and then the HVAC can be fed from it and at that time there will likely be a third system for article 702.

Edit
Oops:slaphead: I read the body of the post and failed to read the title. So I am leaving my original incorrect post as a scarlet letter for my shame. :ashamed1: In which case I confirm what gadfly said. Except I am not sure why you think it will lead to significant cost differences?

 

[gadfly56]

I disagree respectfully. Unless the HVAC is in question is essential for safety to human life, it can't be on the article 700 Emergency System. Once that is accepted then it is dealer's choice. The Governmental agency has the right to determine they require an article 701 legally required standby system, and then the HVAC can be fed from it and at that time there will likely be a third system for article 702.

Edit
Oops:slaphead: I read the body of the post and failed to read the title. So I am leaving my original incorrect post as a scarlet letter for my shame. :ashamed1: In which case I confirm what gadfly said. Except I am not sure why you think it will lead to significant cost differences?

I am now going to run perilously close to the limit of my knowledge on generator systems under chapter 7 and NFPA 110, but I believe "emergency" systems need a max run-up time of 10 seconds while "legally required standby" systems can take 60 seconds. You pay for the performance difference. There are also restrictions on what wire/cable can be run together, depending on it being on emergency power.

 

[Shujinko]

I have a government project, where the agency has a design criteria document which requires the HVAC system to be on emergency stand-by power. This is not a code requirement, it is however the government agency requirement. Per the letter of the code could this HVAC system be placed on a Legally Required ATS per Article 701 or would it have to be on an optional stand-by system per Article 702?

In order to clarify my question the first sentence should read "I have a government project, where the agency has a design criteria document which requires the HVAC system to be on generator stand-by power."

The question has to do with Legally Required vs optional stand-by systems (articles 701 & 702). The question in not in reference emergency stand-by systems described in Article 700. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Strathead]

I am now going to run perilously close to the limit of my knowledge on generator systems under chapter 7 and NFPA 110, but I believe "emergency" systems need a max run-up time of 10 seconds while "legally required standby" systems can take 60 seconds. You pay for the performance difference. There are also restrictions on what wire/cable can be run together, depending on it being on emergency power.

But it can't be on an emergency system period. The options are legally required standby and optional standby and the OP obviously knew the difference because he used the correct wording.

 

[gadfly56]

But it can't be on an emergency system period. The options are legally required standby and optional standby and the OP obviously knew the difference because he used the correct wording.

700 - Emergency System
701 - Legally Required Standby System
702 - Optional Standby System

Argue with the code committee. The government agency has made their determination, and the government can pick and choose. Note the red highlight below.

700.2 Definitions.

Emergency Systems. Those systems legally required and
classed as emergency by municipal, state, federal, or other
codes, or by any governmental agency having jurisdiction.
These systems are intended to automatically supply illumi-
nation, power, or both, to designated areas and equipment
in the event of failure of the normal supply or in the event
of accident to elements of a system intended to supply,
distribute, and control power and illumination essential for
safety to human life.

 

[steve66]

In order to clarify my question the first sentence should read "I have a government project, where the agency has a design criteria document which requires the HVAC system to be on generator stand-by power."

The question has to do with Legally Required vs optional stand-by systems (articles 701 & 702). The question in not in reference emergency stand-by systems described in Article 700. I apologize for the confusion.

In that case, I would consider it an optional stand by system.

 

[gadfly56]

In that case, I would consider it an optional stand by system.

Whoops, I owe Strathead an apology. Didn't read the OP's clarification. My bad! :ashamed:

 

[ron]

Sounds like it is a 702 type load, but I think the question is does he need a separate 702 ATS or can it coexist "within" the 701 ATS.

Wiring is allowed to coexist between 701 and 702, but I'm not sure if the ATSs can be one in the same. Is the generator big enough to pickup the whole connected load or do you need to step on loads to not overwhelm the generator anyway?

 

[Strathead]

700 - Emergency System
701 - Legally Required Standby System
702 - Optional Standby System

Argue with the code committee. The government agency has made their determination, and the government can pick and choose. Note the red highlight below.

700.2 Definitions.

Emergency Systems. Those systems legally required and
classed as emergency by municipal, state, federal, or other
codes, or by any governmental agency having jurisdiction.
These systems are intended to automatically supply illumi-
nation, power, or both, to designated areas and equipment
in the event of failure of the normal supply or in the event
of accident to elements of a system intended to supply,
distribute, and control power and illumination essential for
safety to human life.

You can't cheery pick the code section. The part that you hilighted is a sentence. The rule of English dictate that it is the EMERGENCY systems that the AHJ is classifying as emergency systems. Once they are classified, the next sentence tells you what can be on them. After that in the code there is a informational note that tells you that it is allowed to provide power to additional systems, none of which is HVAC with the exception of ventilation required for smoke removal. Keep going and you will see that 701 system has a note that DOES allow HVAC to be fed from it.

If you want to discuss a load that you could actually argue and isn't spelled out, how about this. Say you have a biological agent that is frozen and if it thaws, it is instantly deadly to human life. Should you put the freezer on the emergency circuit? the code certainly allows you to put it on the 710 standby, but I would then argue you could ask for special permission from the AHJ to put this on the article 700 Emergency panel.

 

[gadfly56]

You can't cheery pick the code section. The part that you hilighted is a sentence. The rule of English dictate that it is the EMERGENCY systems that the AHJ is classifying as emergency systems. Once they are classified, the next sentence tells you what can be on them. After that in the code there is a informational note that tells you that it is allowed to provide power to additional systems, none of which is HVAC with the exception of ventilation required for smoke removal. Keep going and you will see that 701 system has a note that DOES allow HVAC to be fed from it.

If you want to discuss a load that you could actually argue and isn't spelled out, how about this. Say you have a biological agent that is frozen and if it thaws, it is instantly deadly to human life. Should you put the freezer on the emergency circuit? the code certainly allows you to put it on the 710 standby, but I would then argue you could ask for special permission from the AHJ to put this on the article 700 Emergency panel.

I did say I was sorry at #10 about missing the OP's clarification. Otherwise, I still think that if someone with the authority wished to elevate HVAC to an "Emergency System" they are free to do so.

 

[Strathead]

I did say I was sorry at #10 about missing the OP's clarification. Otherwise, I still think that if someone with the authority wished to elevate HVAC to an "Emergency System" they are free to do so.

Since I clearly expressed that my thoughts were only opinion, please convince me what in the code and/or the law would allow that, because I think the code is very clear. As a caveat, I am interpreting you use of HVAC to indicate area heating and air conditioning not some specific unique situation where a rare disease or something means a person who isn't in room between 68 and 72 degrees with die in three minutes.

 

[gadfly56]

Since I clearly expressed that my thoughts were only opinion, please convince me what in the code and/or the law would allow that, because I think the code is very clear. As a caveat, I am interpreting you use of HVAC to indicate area heating and air conditioning not some specific unique situation where a rare disease or something means a person who isn't in room between 68 and 72 degrees with die in three minutes.

Yes, taking just the general case.

Under the definition, there are two sentences. The first says who declares what systems are "emergency". The second gives a "sense" of what the committee feels should be the target of that definition. In the second sentence the systems are intended to deliver illumination, or power, or both, to "designated areas and equipment". If an AHJ under the first sentence declares HVAC an emergency system for whatever reason, it gets treated as "essential for safety to human life" under the second. Keep in mind that in the OP's example the customer is a government agency and may very well have AHJ jurisdiction for the project.