george blanchet
Member
what are the best ways to run wire in walls and ceillings that have asbestos in them? we are trying to avoid disturbing the absestos with we drill and cut the plaster when installing old work boxes.
asbestos
- Thread starter george blanchet
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mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Legally, there really isn't a way unless you secure some additional licensing and training. Some states have exceptions regarding de minimis amounts of asbestos, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
make the helper do it while your in the van drinking coffee
SmithBuilt
Senior Member
- Location
- Foothills of NC
How do you know it is asbestos?
I've never seen any installed in walls, not that it wasn't, I've just never seen any.
I've never seen any installed in walls, not that it wasn't, I've just never seen any.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
George,
Be very careful here. An EC in my area disturbed some asbestos in a hospital mechanical room and the clean up costs exceeded $25,000. The EC's insurance company paid.
Be very careful here. An EC in my area disturbed some asbestos in a hospital mechanical room and the clean up costs exceeded $25,000. The EC's insurance company paid.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
I've got one going right now (actually been ongoing for years) that has asbestos of all sorts in the walls. Drywall joint tape contains asbestos. Some walls, the drywall mud contains asbestos. Some walls have asbestos boards as a first layer behind the drywall for what reason I don't know. Some walls have a decorative Masonite wainscoting that is adhered with glue containing asbestos. The mechanical room itself has a ceiling that is basically stuccoed with asbestos. Add into that the fact that everything is painted or varnished with lead laden products.SmithBuilt said:
I go in every once in a while and trace out device boxes onto the walls, and the odd place here and there where I need a square cut out to fish MC cable, then I come back a few weeks later and they're magically cut out for me by the asbestos space men, and the edges of the cutouts sealed with paint of some sort.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
Asbestos is no joke. One exposure can kill you. Just bringing the dust home in your clothes can kill your wife and children with one exposure doing your laundry. Each person reacts differently to it. If you dont know get training dont take anyones word for it this stuff is very dangerous and improper handling puts unsuspecting innocent people at risk of a horrible death. If you are not sure go to home depot and buy a mask for 50 bucks it may save your life.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
yes I own the mask (normal respirator with high end filters) and the stuff Marc is talking about at-least in our situation is not of lethal value but the stuff on our old steam pipes are..we actually had a licensed contractor come in and do an asbestos survey..they sample everything in question label and mark every sample with a number and location very detailed..the report came back and the estimated removal costs were 20 grand..they removed some of the stuff off the pipes and we got to survey the process..Sloppy cleanup and what we thought was poor compliance to the rules but yet upon questioning and being showed the rules they were in compliance..So when I cut into the walls I use my mask and chisel in my hammer drill cut through the stucco and wire mess I then cut the sheet rock normally. unless you test it you will never know..having a test down an knowing what you are up against is the best..I also know of lots of people who have worked around the stuff and are okay..I have a friend who has work for a contractor doing asbestos abatement for years and no issues..This is an issue that is serious and at the same time blown out of proportion..
edited to add:
one more thing if the government thought this was such a serious issue then why dont they shut down the public schools that have this in it..our children go to school everyday and are exsposed in our older public buildings and no issues..these could be the same schools you grew up in and you are fine..think about it are you going to live in a bubble..No you are in the real world the wrongs we discover now, were cutting edge technology when they were made..Maybe the government will shut down the public building like courthouses and government centers that have asbestos in them..Nope when they move out they sell them for a loss and private contractors turn them into apartments for the poor..do you think they followed the removal programs..some maybe maybe not..
edited to add:
one more thing if the government thought this was such a serious issue then why dont they shut down the public schools that have this in it..our children go to school everyday and are exsposed in our older public buildings and no issues..these could be the same schools you grew up in and you are fine..think about it are you going to live in a bubble..No you are in the real world the wrongs we discover now, were cutting edge technology when they were made..Maybe the government will shut down the public building like courthouses and government centers that have asbestos in them..Nope when they move out they sell them for a loss and private contractors turn them into apartments for the poor..do you think they followed the removal programs..some maybe maybe not..
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As long as asbestos is not disturbed there is no immeadiate health threats.
The issues start when the asbestos gets disturbed and becomes friable. The particulates (fibers) if they are inhaled basically get stuck in the lungs and clog the bronchials, the body does not process this material and it bassically sits there forever, this can lie dormant for years than all of a sudden you have trouble breathing and then the cancer can develop then its a one way ticket to the grave.
If it is identified as asbestos, run in conduit outside the walls. avoid the asbestos areas. Incnlude an asbestos clause in any contract you set up with your customer before you do the work.
If the asbestos gets disturbed and ignored, and just swept up and thrown away and it is discovered there is a whole host of government agencies that will lineup trying to get there share of the gravy train of fines including criminal penaties.
The issues start when the asbestos gets disturbed and becomes friable. The particulates (fibers) if they are inhaled basically get stuck in the lungs and clog the bronchials, the body does not process this material and it bassically sits there forever, this can lie dormant for years than all of a sudden you have trouble breathing and then the cancer can develop then its a one way ticket to the grave.
If it is identified as asbestos, run in conduit outside the walls. avoid the asbestos areas. Incnlude an asbestos clause in any contract you set up with your customer before you do the work.
If the asbestos gets disturbed and ignored, and just swept up and thrown away and it is discovered there is a whole host of government agencies that will lineup trying to get there share of the gravy train of fines including criminal penaties.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
nicely put..
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
cschmid said:
The reason the rush to remove asbestos has slowed, is because it was discovered that removing the asbestos actually made it more hazardous than just leaving it in place. Turns out it is very difficult to prevent asbestos fibers from escaping into the air, and a number of buildings that had asbestos removed actually had higher levels of asbestos fibers in the air after the removal than before. These days the most common thing seems to be to remove it only if you have to. Sort of like the lead paint scares of a few years back. The rules on removing them have been relaxed a lot in many areas, as it became obvious that the threat to contractors and the environment is no where near as bad as once feared.
Run Away -----FAST!
Run Away -----FAST!
If it is asbestos, and the job requires that work be completed in the area, I would probably not take the job. As an employer, you are responsible for the health and safety of your employees. More than likely, you are not trained nor equipped to handle asbestos exposure. OSHA requires that the employer maintain exposure records for 30 years, when an employee is exposed to hazards such as asbestos, and there are other reuirements as well. The liability of possibly inroducing asbestos into the air and contaminating the building (requiring a very expensive cleanup), or killing your employees through the long and painful process of asbestosis, negates any reason to take the job. Leave this one for the giant EC who has his own safety team, and will probably hire another company to do the abatement or control in the are.
Just my 2 cents.
Run Away -----FAST!
If it is asbestos, and the job requires that work be completed in the area, I would probably not take the job. As an employer, you are responsible for the health and safety of your employees. More than likely, you are not trained nor equipped to handle asbestos exposure. OSHA requires that the employer maintain exposure records for 30 years, when an employee is exposed to hazards such as asbestos, and there are other reuirements as well. The liability of possibly inroducing asbestos into the air and contaminating the building (requiring a very expensive cleanup), or killing your employees through the long and painful process of asbestosis, negates any reason to take the job. Leave this one for the giant EC who has his own safety team, and will probably hire another company to do the abatement or control in the are.
Just my 2 cents.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I agree if you are not trained and equipped to wrok with asbetos, you should not do so.DUCKMAN said:
However, that does not mean you cannot partner up with someone who has that training and equipment to do the things you can't do for yourself.
If a qualified asbestos contractor takes care of the asbestos problems, you won't have to deal with any of the issues you mentioned.
c2500
Senior Member
- Location
- South Carolina
mdshunk said:
Marc,
I believe the asbestos boards are there as a fire proofing element. My old condo had its furnace room under the stairs done in a mortar and lath arrangement. It also had these lovely asbestos sheets on the half door access (under the stairs) and on the doors where the equipment could be removed.
Even more exciting was the insulating wrap on the former hot water heating system in the attic of another portion of the complex. You get close to it and a nice read heart label reads "the best in asbestos". Needless to say I quickly got an asbestos rated mask.
c2500
Asbestos doesn't kill with a one time exposure and more info
Asbestos doesn't kill with a one time exposure and more info
First.
It needs to be tested to verify what it is and then what %.
Asbestos is a long-term illness and it is hard to pin point that the death was related to asbestos exposure and not something else.
While in school a couple of years ago they had mentioned that some of the illnesses related to asbestos may actually be from fiberglass fibers. They look about the same as asbestos under the microscope. And where is it used? Air duct insulation.
EPA?s Five Facts Regarding Asbestos
Although asbestos is hazardous, the risk of asbestos-related disease depends upon exposure to airborne asbestos.
In other words, an individual must breathe asbestos fibers in order to incur any chance of developing an asbestos related disease.
How many fibers a person must breathe to develop disease is uncertain.
However, at very low exposure levels, the risk may be negligible or zero.
Covers asbestos exposure in all work as defined in OSHA 29 CFR 1910.12(b), regardless of the type of worksite or location.
OSHA?s asbestos standard requires training for personnel who work in areas where asbestos containing materials (ACM) may be present upon initial hiring and annually thereafter.
Adding asbestos to soft materials such as pipe insulation and acoustic plaster was banned in the U.S. by the late 1970s.
However, even today, asbestos can still be added to products that encapsulate or otherwise bind the fibers such as vinyl floor tile, cement pipe and asphalt roofing.
While U.S. production has diminished, asbestos-bearing ores are found worldwide and countries such as Canada and Brazil remain major manufacturers and exporters of asbestos products.
Asbestos doesn't kill with a one time exposure and more info
First.
It needs to be tested to verify what it is and then what %.
Asbestos is a long-term illness and it is hard to pin point that the death was related to asbestos exposure and not something else.
While in school a couple of years ago they had mentioned that some of the illnesses related to asbestos may actually be from fiberglass fibers. They look about the same as asbestos under the microscope. And where is it used? Air duct insulation.
EPA?s Five Facts Regarding Asbestos
Although asbestos is hazardous, the risk of asbestos-related disease depends upon exposure to airborne asbestos.
In other words, an individual must breathe asbestos fibers in order to incur any chance of developing an asbestos related disease.
How many fibers a person must breathe to develop disease is uncertain.
However, at very low exposure levels, the risk may be negligible or zero.
Covers asbestos exposure in all work as defined in OSHA 29 CFR 1910.12(b), regardless of the type of worksite or location.
OSHA?s asbestos standard requires training for personnel who work in areas where asbestos containing materials (ACM) may be present upon initial hiring and annually thereafter.
Adding asbestos to soft materials such as pipe insulation and acoustic plaster was banned in the U.S. by the late 1970s.
However, even today, asbestos can still be added to products that encapsulate or otherwise bind the fibers such as vinyl floor tile, cement pipe and asphalt roofing.
While U.S. production has diminished, asbestos-bearing ores are found worldwide and countries such as Canada and Brazil remain major manufacturers and exporters of asbestos products.
MR2Di4
Member
- Location
- Ketchikan, Alaska
- Occupation
- Central Office Network Technician
I recently completed a 16 Hour course on Asbestos and it was an eye-opener! The course entailed a lot of education on identifying ACM and ACBMs used and some that are still used. Buildings built after 1980 are NOT necessarily safe from asbestos, due to lack of manufacturing controls and As it turns out asbestos is the most common scapegoat for fibrosis, when in fact there are several common materials which can cause damage to your lungs if proper PPE isn't used.
Completing the course supposedly allows me a Class III asbestos abatement cert for one year, allowing me to properly remove/repair a 3' linear/square area if needs be. Hopefully I will never need to do anything near asbestos but now I know more of what to look for, plus my employer got me fit-tested for a respirator.
Completing the course supposedly allows me a Class III asbestos abatement cert for one year, allowing me to properly remove/repair a 3' linear/square area if needs be. Hopefully I will never need to do anything near asbestos but now I know more of what to look for, plus my employer got me fit-tested for a respirator.
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