Atm gfci?

Status
Not open for further replies.
PCN

PCN

Senior Member
Location
New England
On a recent new supermarket project we were required by local code enforcement to change a receptacle feeding an interior ATM to a GFI. No sink, drinking fountain or anything like that in the area.
This project is in New Hampshire, anybody run into this before???
 
I disagree. To vend is to sell. An ATM does not vend (which is to say, "sell") anything. But more to the point, the explanation of "vending machine," as presented in 422.51, talks about products and merchandise that have been paid for by some means. Money is neither a product nor merchandise.
 
buddhakii said:
Is money not a product? If not what is money?
Click to expand...

Money is a token - symbolic - representation of a product or any other type article with value.

The point in installing GFI on an ATM that is located outside of the store that it will be subject to weather, especially in the form of rain, therefore it can potentially develop a ground fault that would present hazard to personnel.

Indoors, does not make much sense to me. Nor do I understand why a candy-machine would require GFI, unless the Vending location is considered interchangeable and has water available to hook up a soda machine.

An ATM does not sell your money, it is already yours, however it deos charge a feee for its operation weather it is actually added to the statement or an inclusive service in return for the use of your money.
 
The U.L. standard for vending machines is 751 (non refrigerated),.. the U.L. standard for an ATM is 291 .. not all machines that dispense are also vending
 
PCN said:
On a recent new supermarket project we were required by local code enforcement to change a receptacle feeding an interior ATM to a GFI. No sink, drinking fountain or anything like that in the area.
This project is in New Hampshire, anybody run into this before???
Click to expand...

Did you ask the inspector why?
 
buddhakii said:
I would say an atm is a vending machine. Does it not vend money? So yes it does need GFCI protection.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. I put my card in, in one way or another I get charged to use the ATM, and I walk away with something in my hand.(paper product)

For the purpose of this section, the term vending machine means any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.
Click to expand...
 
I wonder what the date on that puppy is,.. the FPN refers us to the ul standard that I mentioned plus the one for refrigerated vending machines
 
electricmanscott said:
Did you ask the inspector why?
Click to expand...

I was not on site when this came up. (I'm just the lackey electrical designer on this project). It just caught my attention while reviewing the change order. I think this is one of those "gray areas" in the code, I always thought of a vending machine as a soda ,candy machine etc....

As always I appreciate the insight of this forums members.
 
I always thought of a vending machine as a soda ,candy machine etc....

Me too until this question came up. Still looks to me as though money is a product therefore an ATM is a vending machine.
 
I always thought of it as any machine that dispersed ANYTHING to a customer was meant to be protected by ground fault protection. If a person has access to a convenience machine, it must be GFCI protected. That's how it goes here, no if's, and's or but's about it:confused:
 
An ATM dispenses money (product) for a fee by the insertion of a token (card). I would have to agree with the inspector and give him a lot of credit. He really had to dig deep to come up with that.
 
I have noticed that there is no mention of voltage in 422.51 ,.. what about all the laundry mats ??? and howes about Las Vegas Baby?? aren't slots vending entertainment?? how about an arcade??

I think they screwed up with the definition,... and again they are also requiring that the manufacturer as of 01/05 , to include the protection when they make one.,.. so if U.L. does not consider a 240v dryer a vending machine ,...is it one ?? again the NEC refers us to UL. 541 and 751 .. those are the standards for vending machines ...
 
Lcdrwalker said:
An ATM dispenses money (product) for a fee by the insertion of a token (card). I would have to agree with the inspector and give him a lot of credit. He really had to dig deep to come up with that.
Click to expand...


My bank does not charge a fee so it is a dispenser ??
 
this guy wanted a voltage limitation and a definition,.. the funny thing is they think the definition helps:roll:


Substantiation: The Ampere/Voltage rating needs to be addressed as there are
coin-operated 30 A, 250V electric clothes dryers that, possibly were not
intended to be included. The definition is needed to distinguish that you put a
coin into the slot and you receive merchandise or a product. Many cordconnected
coin-operated machines do not vend merchandise or a product,
instead they offer a service such as clothes washers, clothes dryers, ATM
machines, ice machines (no coin needed), slot machines (some are cord-and
plug-connected; of course, you get nothing back). The intent of this proposal is
to give the Code-Making Panel some thoughts toward clarifying this section for
2008.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Part
Revise 422.51 to read as follows:
Cord-and-plug-connected vending machines, manufactured or remanufactured
on or after January 1, 2005, shall include a ground-fault-circuitinterrupter
as an integral part of the attachment plug or located within 300 mm
(12 in) of the attachment plug. Older vending machines manufactured or
remanufactured prior to January 1, 2005, shall be connected to a GFCIprotected
outlet. For the purpose of this section, the term ?vending machine?
means any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without
the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and
designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or
receipt of payment by other means.
Add FPN to read as follows:
FPN: For further information, see ANSI/UL 541-2005, Standard for
Refrigerated Vending Machines, or ANSI/UL 751-2005, Standard for Vending
Machines.
Panel Statement: The panel rejects the deletion of re-manufactured vending
machines as well as the branch circuit limitations. There is no substantiation
for not providing the same level of safety for vending machines that are on
branch circuits of greater than 20 amperes or 120 v.
The panel accepts the submitter?s statement defining vending machines as
modified.
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 14
Click to expand...
​
​
​

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top