Attic Remodel

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I'm working on an estimate for a guy who has framed in the attic in a duplex. Included in this attic are two small bedrooms, a bathroom, and a common area. He's planning on insulating the space, but he has made no provision for heat beyond portable electric space heaters.

The panel for the unit is an 8/16 SqD HOM panel filled with eight S-P breakers, and he is not interested in a new panel or a subpanel (plus there's no space for either of them). The plans call for 19 receptacles in the finished spaces, eight lights, a bathroom receptacle and an exhaust fan. At a bare minimum, I need to install one circuit for the bathroom and one for everything else, but considering the HO's vague plan to use electric space heaters, I'm wondering how to design this so he's not constantly overloading the circuits.

If he's really planning on using space heaters as the sole source of heat, they're often going to be running continuously during winter (this is Minnesota, after all). I'm thinking one 20A circuit per bedroom, plus one for the common area, plus one for the bathroom. That would make four circuits, two of which would need AFCI protection. The only downside would be that the lights would be mixed in on these circuits, meaning darkness if the breaker kicks. Putting in a separate circuit for the lights would be ideal, but then we're talking three full-size AFCI breakers, and then having to tandem the remaining 10 circuits (eight old, two new) for the five slots left in the panel.

Or should I not concern myself with heating issues and just install what he wants and let him worry about the heat (or lack thereof)? I tried to explain all of this to the HO, but he didn't seem to understand the potential overload issues, and there was a bit of a language barrier.
 
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Yeesh!

Seems to me there is a Building Code requirement that the source of heat be permanent, not portable. . . .

I can just imagine. The amount of diplomacy necessary to convey the requirements of multiple Codes. . . .

Did you ask if permits had been pulled?
 
Add another PB up in the attic and run maybe a 50A 120/240 feeder up there and be done with it.

That would give him enough juice to run a couple of permanent space heaters if needed later on.

I don't think it is your responsibility to worry a whole lot about other codes as long as what you are doing meets the codes you are responsible for.
 
I had the same thought about the building code requiring some kind of permanent heat, especially since this is a duplex. I couldn't find anything on the city's Web pages, though. Surprisingly enough, the city does list a homeowner remodeling permit being pulled in June and cleared this month.

When he framed it in and put in flooring, he was careful to do so around all the j-boxes and EMT installed on the floor. The conduit and most of the j-boxes are out in the open, conveniently located in places where they are easy to trip over. I spent some time tracing wat the wiring was doing and found that two j-boxes really can't be moved without having to rewire most of the 2nd floor unit. I told the HO that if he doesn't want to have major surgery on his electrical system (and the associated drywall repair), he can come up with some new plans that include walls where the j-boxes are. I should be able to move put new j-boxes in the walls to keep the wire splices accessible. I would have thought he would have called in an electrician to deal with the existing wiring before he did all the framing.

I'm not looking to make extra work for myself by making sure all the other trades' jobs are being done, but whenever I am asked to wire up a space, I ask about intended use so I can design the circuits accordingly. When I noticed no heating vents, I figured space heaters would come into play, and the HO confirmed that he was planning on going that route. Sure, I could just do a code-minimum installation, but I'd wind up looking like the bad guy if the breakers keep tripping due to overload that I reasonably should have anticipated.

I do like the subpanel idea, though. I'll run it past the HO and see what he thinks.
 
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Larry,

I like T&M. You like T&M. Pretty much everyone likes T&M, except of course for customers. :D

I just finished writing up the estimate for this job. It's a 3rd floor attic, all framed in (and apparently passed inspection), and I can open up a chaseway to get from the main panel to the third floor with a feeder. I spent a couple of hours at the house making sure there will be few surprises.

Here's the job:

20 duplex receptacles (code minumum), including one GFCI in the bathroom.
One bathroom exhaust fan.
Eight light fixtures, all easy to reach, all easy to mount.
Eight single-pole switches, one pair of three-ways (also easy to reach).
Move three j-boxes into walls the HO will build.
Connect existing j-box wiring to three other j-boxes.
One 8-space 50A, 240V subpanel.
Three circuits: 20A bathroom, 20A receptacles (AFCI), 15A lights (AFCI)
One $46 permit.

Total price came in just under $3600. My guess is I won't get the job. HO didn't look like he could afford it.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Seems to me there is a Building Code requirement that the source of heat be permanent, not portable. . . .?
Click to expand...

I agree with Al, once the inspections start happening the HO will most likely be adding permanent heat.

At that point you should be doing a service calc to see if the existing service is adequate.
 
I wonder about the inspections. There was a remodeling permit pulled recently, but it was cleared a few weeks ago, so I'm assuming it was a framing inspection. The only other inspection that will likely happen will be electrical, and that, unlike every other building-related inspection, is handled by a state inspector rather than a city inspector. I doubt the state electrical inspector would call the city to report a lack of heating vents. I've seen city inspectors do that kind of thing, but I don't think any more city inspectors are going to see this job.

The unit currently has 100A service, and I found out that two circuits control everything in the place except for the microwave and the bathroom. The only way I see a load calc affecting things is if he goes wild and wants lots of electric heat installed in the attic.
 
Quote:"I don't think it is your responsibility to worry a whole lot about other codes as long as what you are doing meets the codes you are responsible for."

As licensed contractors, it is our responsibility to consider other codes, when planning our jobs.

Where we are, the permit would not be issued, without the completed plans, structural, plumbing, heating, electrical, chances are pretty good, there is a problem there, you may want to check, with the building department, and get their input.
 
LarryFine said:
Jeff, one piece of advice: T&M!
Click to expand...

I hate T&M. I'm too fast to charge what value I give by the hour. By the hour there is no motivation for me to hurry & get it done.
I prefer to bid it.
When I give an hourly rate I have to go with $85 & there are a few other EC's quoting less. But when I give a fixed price I usually can make $200 hour or more sometimes.
I have too much of a backlog to be doing T&M when I need to hurry, be productive & move on.
 
I agree that flat pricing is better for us, except on a job that we genuinely cannot predict the time, and sometimes even the materials, until we get started. As a compromise, I'll sometimes offer T&M with a cap.
 
True, I just got my final Insp on a job just like that.

It was for a friend that took over a remodel that was bootleged,sheetrocked then redtaged..
I had to open up wall's & then repair all levels of stuff that I could not have estimated till the walls were opened.
Labor was way to low for what I could have charged.
Materials were way higher than I would have guessed.

Next time I take something like this will be hourly, till I open up walls, then I can bid it, & bid it high.
 
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