Is aluminum AWG 12 back in the market? I am proposing a service panel change, it contains 4 "new" circuits on aluminum 12 that were ran to the attic to supply several recess light cans and some receptacles. The attic gets at least 160 degree or more in AZ. How those conductors were derated? I am not comfortable with those.
Auminum in attic
- Thread starter Esthy
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MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
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I am not aware of any Branch Circuit AL being sold on the market in the size you have described. However, with that said the NEC permits it's use under 310.106(B). Chances are at the time of install derating due to ambient temps were the furthest thing from their mind.
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- Semi-Retired Electrician
No, it's not "back in the market"!
It's allowed to stay but you would either have to get connectors suitable to splice copper to Alu., or get devices that are rated for Alu. These devices are expensive and usually not stocked locally (at least where I am)
I don't understand the "new circuit" part. Either the wire is already run and you plan on connecting it to the lights or the wire is there and they want you to run and use it. I doubt the lights are rated for Alu.
IMO, I would abandon the Alu and run copper.
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
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I should add....it was probably done back in the late 60's to early 70's when the AL nonmetallic sheathed cable was rather common.
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MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
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Fact is the issue was never about the AL wire itself, even if it was AA1350, that was only part of the lesser issue. The real issue was the terminations and changes from brass to steel terminals. Can't say I agree to abandon it based on what I know to be fact.....but the terminations should be checked and AS long as the circuits are protected based on your calculations after applying 310.15 (B)(2)(a) for your piece of mind.....then and only then would you have to make that decision in my opinion.
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I agree with the others- Silver nm has not returned- there has only been talk of it coming back due to the improved alloy/expense of copper. As for the heat, the old AL nm almost certainly had type TW insulation on the conductors that was rated for 60c and as MastertheNEC pointed out, they prolly couldn't have cared less about any derating due to sweltering attics.
FWIW, literally millions of feet nm w/ tw was installed in attics across the south from the '50s until the '80s code required change to 90c rated nm- and most of that old wiring is still perfectly fine.
If by new you mean the other wiring appears much older, then its possible these were added in the 70s. If the ckts do appear really new, the presence of a hack is highly suspect- could have used cable he ripped from another job. Be on the look out for non approved al/cu splices and if you decide to save the al ckts, alumiconns are good for the joints/ pigtails to devices- you may have to get bigger boxes to accommodate those.
Might be better though as said by Little Bill to just get rid of those ckts/replace w/ copper
No, it was done last year by some one. Someone remodeled the kitchen with those new lights and some receptacles with the 12 AL. I will try to send some photos. The last mini breakers on the right bottom side are the ones with those 12 AL. Customer want to leave it in this way, but I don't agreed. Those go to the cans without connectors, in a messy way as this is a "walking" attic. I am not comfortable with 160+ degrees. Also, note the water pipe as a conduit.
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For a couple of years the new alloy aluminum single conductors were on the market in the 15 and 20 amp sizes. That was in the mid 70's. I don't think they ever made NM with the new alloy. We did an apartment complex with EMT and the aluminum conductors when I was an apprentice. When I topped out, I ran the service truck for a number of years and we had no more problems with the aluminum than we did with the copper. All of the devices were CO/ALR so that took care of the termination issue (mentioned in a previous post by MasterTheNEC) that was a big part of the problem with the old aluminum
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
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Esthy said:
I don't really think I would want to be the last person to put my name on that mess unless the owner agreed to clean up all those violations. The last person to touch it owns it and is going to be blamed for anything that goes wrong by the lawyers and you can bet that your cheap customer will throw you under the bus the first chance he gets..
-Hal
"I don't really think I would want to be the last person to put my name on that mess unless the owner agreed to clean up all those violations. The last person to touch it owns it and is going to be blamed for anything that goes wrong by the lawyers and you can bet that your cheap customer will throw you under the bus the first chance he gets.."
You are right hbiss, I wrote him the same but nothing like you well verse statement.
You are right hbiss, I wrote him the same but nothing like you well verse statement.
If the dangers, including the risk of his house burning down, have been explained to him and he still will not agree to get that fixed for whatever reason, then its best to walk. Even if you would be vindicated in a legal setting, there is still the matter of your rep, you worked on a house that burned.
Whatever you do, get everything in writing.
>Someone remodeled the kitchen with those new lights and some receptacles with the 12 AL.
If they put 12AL an a 20A SABC that's a problem. If they put lights on a SABC that's also a problem.
If they put outlets on a 15A circuit in the kitchen that may be a problem.
If they put 12AL an a 20A SABC that's a problem. If they put lights on a SABC that's also a problem.
If they put outlets on a 15A circuit in the kitchen that may be a problem.
JDawn
Member
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If the kitchen was remodeled using aluminum, where any counter top devices serviced, if so what ground fault devices were used at the countertop. I don't believe there are any manufacturers that allow for aluminum connections to ground faults. I don't see any gfci breakers in panel. And trying to fit alumicon style connectors on the conductors, then cram the ground fault receptacle back into the box is a monumental task on its own.
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JFletcher
Senior Member
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- Williamsburg, VA
Nah, I use an LV-1 aka Limitless Volume box. :lol:
eta: if the attic is reaching 160*, you might want to pitch an attic ventilation system to the owner, and clean up the existing wiring, otherwise the inevitable fire will give all the ventilation and natural lighting you could never want.
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