Auto doors during fire alarm

[plumb bob]

Hello all.
I know answers will vary with jurisdictions and AHJs but looking for guys experience in thei areas.

1 hour smoke rated double doors with automatic openers and push buttons on each side of the doors. No door hold magnets, the normal state of the doors is closed. They return to closed after being actuated. In a fire alarm condition, can the push buttons continue to function as normal or should the alarm disable the buttons and the doors need to be pushed open for egress?

Thanks for any opinions, experiences, or code references!

 

[GoldDigger]

My SWAG is that the automatic opening buttons would have to be disabled. Otherwise the door may remain open for longer than necessary to pass through.

When opened manually the doors should still swing closed by themselves or be able to be manually reclosed in that case.

Also, as with elevator doors in a fire situation, damage to the exposed buttons could open the doors to let the fire through.

 

[mgookin]

My SWAG is that the automatic opening buttons would have to be disabled. Otherwise the door may remain open for longer than necessary to pass through.

When opened manually the doors should still swing closed by themselves or be able to be manually reclosed in that case.

Also, as with elevator doors in a fire situation, damage to the exposed buttons could open the doors to let the fire through.

All fire rated doors have to be self-closing. You can't require manual reclosing.
I agree the pushbuttons have to be disabled.

 

[plumb bob]

All fire rated doors have to be self-closing. You can't require manual reclosing.
I agree the pushbuttons have to be disabled.

And this is what was designed and installed. Fire alarm and the buttons are disabled. What was noticed by facility staff during testing was that doors seem to actually close slower after being pushed through than when actuated by the buttons. And they are correct, the doors do close slightly slower when pushed through and this was the source of the confusion.

I suspect what will happen is we will provide the building code reference if there is one that the design is correct, install a new opener even though nothing is wrong with the original to keep them happy, and move on.

Thanks guys.

 

[mgookin]

And this is what was designed and installed. Fire alarm and the buttons are disabled. What was noticed by facility staff during testing was that doors seem to actually close slower after being pushed through than when actuated by the buttons. And they are correct, the doors do close slightly slower when pushed through and this was the source of the confusion.

I suspect what will happen is we will provide the building code reference if there is one that the design is correct, install a new opener even though nothing is wrong with the original to keep them happy, and move on.

Thanks guys.

Faster or slower than an automated process is moot. Self-closing is all that is required. Last I knew there was no min/ max time to self-close under fire conditions.

The only spec I know about time for self-closing is a self-closer can not move a door from 70 degrees to within 2" of the striking plate in <3s (to keep from cutting fingers off).

The biggest challenge in self-closers is getting them to close with stairwell pressurization and not chop fingers off (which is only a challenge in highrise stairwells).

 

[dmxtothemax]

install a new opener even though nothing is wrong with the original to keep them happy, and move on.

Thanks guys.

Can you not just adjust the door closer so that it closes faster ?

 

[plumb bob]

Faster or slower than an automated process is moot. Self-closing is all that is required. Last I knew there was no min/ max time to self-close under fire conditions.

This is the crux of what facility staff are questioning. As long as the doors automatically close in a alarm condition, why does it matter if they were opened by the pushbuttons or by manually pushing through.

They are concerned staff will be confused that the buttons are inoperable and not push through the doors to egress. The only answer I had for them was that was the design. They asked about changing it so we are checking with our fire marshall and local codes.

Thanks for the discussion guys.

 

[mgookin]

This is the crux of what facility staff are questioning. As long as the doors automatically close in a alarm condition, why does it matter if they were opened by the pushbuttons or by manually pushing through.

They are concerned staff will be confused that the buttons are inoperable and not push through the doors to egress. The only answer I had for them was that was the design. They asked about changing it so we are checking with our fire marshall and local codes.

Thanks for the discussion guys.

I believe a placard is required "PUSH TO OPEN IN EMERGENCY".
Who is doing the life safety compliance on this job?

And I believe it's 7 lbf to set in motion and 5 lbf to keep it in motion.