Back in the day -GFICs

Status
Not open for further replies.

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
AFCIs are and continue to be very controversial. What about when GFCIs were first introduced "back in the day", the early 1970s?
Did electricians oppose installation of GFCIs much as we see with AFCIs?
Was there a lot of nuisance tripping?

I recall paying $35 for a GFCI in 1976 that was big and had wires to connect to.

IAEI news used to run copies of electrocution and shock articles from around the country. Someone pointed out a very common shock hazard was metal case drills, a lot of people got shocked from those, esp in crawl spaces.
 
Finding a missing 5 mA is easy.

Characterizing an arc, which is supposedly a fourth state of matter (solid, liquid, gas, plasma) may prove to be impossible to any reasonable standard of reliability. I guess if any manufacturer admits this, a lot of people are entitled to a lot of refunds.
 
AFCIs are and continue to be very controversial. What about when GFCIs were first introduced "back in the day", the early 1970s?
Did electricians oppose installation of GFCIs much as we see with AFCIs?
Was there a lot of nuisance tripping?

I recall paying $35 for a GFCI in 1976 that was big and had wires to connect to.

IAEI news used to run copies of electrocution and shock articles from around the country. Someone pointed out a very common shock hazard was metal case drills, a lot of people got shocked from those, esp in crawl spaces.

Just to put things into perspective, my dad bought me a 1965 Studebaker in 1976 for $35.

I used to have a huge metal cased drill. Once I learned about how they were make, using it scared the beejeezus out of me and I finally threw it away. In it's day, it was state of the art. Remember the big Craftsman 1/2 inch electric drill that were built like a DeSoto engine block? The were super popular until the insulation on the inside started ageing, failing and shocking people.
 
Just to put things into perspective, my dad bought me a 1965 Studebaker in 1976 for $35.

I used to have a huge metal cased drill. Once I learned about how they were make, using it scared the beejeezus out of me and I finally threw it away. In it's day, it was state of the art. Remember the big Craftsman 1/2 inch electric drill that were built like a DeSoto engine block? The were super popular until the insulation on the inside started ageing, failing and shocking people.

That ain't fair. My '56 Desoto cost $250.00 bucks in '69
 
We all hated the gfci's back when they came out as they caused problem but nowhere to the extent afci's. The gfci had some small problems and that was easily fixed- they are basically not an issue but I don't see afci's as never being an issue.
 
The GFCI received a lot of scepticism, in part because folks were so tightly focused on fuses as your primary means of protection. The 'ad copy' probably didn't help, either.... there was never any statement made by the promotors as clear, and simple, as "Amps in must equal amps out, or there's something wrong!"

Likewise, GFCI's into the 80's could be a real challenge to wire correctly. Whiich wire went where? Finally, by 1985 most GFCI's were pretty 'goof proof' as far as installer errors were concerned. That's when we really saw them start gaining acceptance.

Two other factors played against easy acceptance of AFCi's.

The first was a lot of confusion regarding grounding, and what role it played in keeping you safe. I'm not too surprised; most faults are bad enough that you'll pop the breaker if you have a good ground path. Many felt that good grounding was all you needed; that's why there has been so much BS spewed over time regarding AC vs. MC vs. Romex; Whether to use fiber washers on devices; pigtails and other device installation details, etc.

The power tool industry had their focus on 'double insulated' tools. This issue faded more as the result of the switch to cordless tools than anything else. The almost universal adoption of plastic cases made nearly every tool 'double insulated,' anyway.

The other was a matter of timing. The GFCI appeared just a few years after "everyone agreed" that the key to electrical safety was voltage. There were alread major investments being made in 24v lighting and controls.

The inventor of the GFCI was quite passionate about his work. Yet, even he did not want to 'force' you to use it. There was never any attempt to require it for every receptacle in the house. Instead, he focused on particular situations - specifically, of a corded radio falling into the tub as someone was bathing.

That the AFCI advocates chose a far more tyrannical path is, IMO, a major reason that AFCI's are not so warmly accepted. Another is the lack of an AFCI device. The AFCI campaign has been one of continual mis-steps, one that has done more than any person to make one sceptical.

I can understand a GFCI. I do not understand AFCI's. I've looked at the 'wave forms' and have not been able to see them. Indeed, it has been pointed out that simple laws of physics mean the hazard they claim to address simply cannot exist at usehold voltages.
 
Earl Roberts in his classic "overcurrents and undercurrents" stated that GFCIs made liars out of a lot of electricians - we don't have any wiring errors. So why is the GFCI tripping?
Because you have a neutral to ground connection!
 
Earl Roberts in his classic "overcurrents and undercurrents" stated that GFCIs made liars out of a lot of electricians - we don't have any wiring errors. So why is the GFCI tripping?
Because you have a neutral to ground connection!

I would bet a fair number of electricians back then did not consider this an actual wiring error. It was a pretty common thing to do.
 
Earl Roberts in his classic "overcurrents and undercurrents" stated that GFCIs made liars out of a lot of electricians - we don't have any wiring errors. So why is the GFCI tripping?
Because you have a neutral to ground connection!

I agree and the same thing has occured with AFCI's. As much as I am suspicious of AFCI, one thing is for sure (at least the ones with some GF detection) is that it has forced electricians to be sure you don't have neutral to ground shorts or using the neutral from a different branch circuit. GFCI and AFCI circuits help to stop this chronic problem.
 
Earl Roberts in his classic "overcurrents and undercurrents" stated that GFCIs made liars out of a lot of electricians - we don't have any wiring errors. So why is the GFCI tripping?
Because you have a neutral to ground connection!

That is true but it is not true the there are always wiring problems with afci. In fact since afci were required I had only one that had a wiring issue. All the other hassle were from Fans, TV's, Vac, DVR's etc. I had one that only trips during a certain part of the programming for the TV/DVR.

In the early stages I had not many issues but lately I have had more problems. I used CH on an existing project and their new diagnostic afci would trip during self test-- replaced it with another and same problem. Finally installed an older model and it worked. Great 3 trips for one afci
 
...
Two other factors played against easy acceptance of AFCi's.

The first was a lot of confusion regarding grounding, and what role it played in keeping you safe. I'm not too surprised; most faults are bad enough that you'll pop the breaker if you have a good ground path. Many felt that good grounding was all you needed; that's why there has been so much BS spewed over time regarding AC vs. MC vs. Romex; Whether to use fiber washers on devices; pigtails and other device installation details, etc. ...
The original branch circuit and feeder AFCIs all had 30 to 50 mA ground fault protection. If you had an EGC, the GFP part would be the cause of the device tripping for many "arcing" faults. The device does not even look at the "arcing" wave form unless the current exceeds 75 amps. It is my opinion that in a system with an EGC, it would be a very very rare fault that could start a fire before tripping the GFP part of the AFCI if the wiring system was in metallic raceway or cable and a rare fault, even if the wiring system was in non-metallic cable or raceways.
 
Hated GFCI's in the 70's and 80's. About a 75% fail rate out of the box and as some one else mentioned you had the wires already connected and half the time they didn't fit in the box.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top